166 - Leaving Web2 with Sriram Krishnan

welcome, to, bankless, where, we, explore, the frontier, of, Internet, money, and, internet Finance, this, is, how, to, get, started, how to, get, better, how, to, front, run, the opportunity, this, is, Ryan, Sean, Adams, I'm here, with, David, Hoffman, and, we're, here to, help, you, become, more, Bagless, what's broken, about, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and, how, to, fix, it, with, sriram, Krishnan this, is, somebody, who's, been, on, the inside, he, is, an, internet, Optimist, he's, a guy, who, grew, up, in, a, small, town, in, India with, little, opportunity, and, used, the internet, to, change, the, course, of, his life, and, now, he, worries, that, these, same

opportunities, won't, be, available, for, the next, Generation, sriram, thinks, web, 3, is the, only, way, to, keep, the, internet, full of, opportunity, for, future, Generations, a few, things, to, take, away, from, this episode, of, course, you, know, we're, going to, talk, about, web3, and, the, transition from, web, 2, to, web, 3, but, this, is, number one, why, sriram, defected, from, web, 2, to web, 3, whenever, there's, an, API, key something, is, broken, he, says, what, does, he mean, by, that, we, get, into, that, in, episode number, two, why, Twitter, can, top, a, world governments, but, can't, sell, an, ad, we, talk about, that, number, three, we, ask, the

question, does, web, 2, have, to, lose, in order, for, web, 3, to, win, number, four, we talk, about, what, every, social, media network, has, to, start, with, the, cool, kids it, has, to, attract, the, cool, kids, says sriram, and, web3, social, will, never, take off, until, it, does, and, number, five, we conclude, by, talking, about, crypto, and, AI artificial, intelligence, that, is, how, do they, intersect, serum, has, some, great ideas, about, that, as, well, David, what, were the, most, significant, parts, of, this episode, for, you, free, ROM, has, an, arc, to him, he, was, a, child, of, web, one, and, so, he

as, a, tinkerer, as, a, coder, as, an experiencer, of, the, internet, saw, what web1, did, for, him, and, his, life, and, it's really, really, personal, and, that, Arc, has taken, him, through, the, web, 2, age, to, where he, is, now, as, a, GP, of, entries, and Horowitz, focusing, on, web3, and, he's, made a, very, big, point, to, say, that, he, is, left web, too, he, calls, himself, a, web, to Defector, and, now, operates, in, web3, even though, he, does, understand, the, good, and

and, real, value, that, web2, has, provided and, still, provides, to, this, world, he, is now, focusing, on, web, 3, because, he, sees the, Starry, Eyed, brightness, that, web3 brings, to, the, world, that, he, saw, in, web, 1 and, is, worried, that, web, 2, is, not, able, to provide, that, same, opportunity, to, the young, Tinkers, uh, that, are, growing, up, in in, this, digital, age, and, so, I, think, that is, a, really, important, lens, to, view, this episode, through, a, really, significant, one if, we, want, to, pass, the, Baton, of, optimism of, Internet, optimism, off, to, our, children

we, need, what, sriram, is, doing, investing in, web, 3, building, out, web, 3, structures we, need, these, things, we, need, web3, to change, the, Paradigm, of, what, social, is and, I, think, that, that, is, three, ROM's call, to, action, that, is, his, purpose, upon this, world, and, I, think, the, The, Listener of, this, podcast, episode, will, be, able, to resonate, with, that, as, they, listen, to this, uh, episode, and, yeah, David, I, think one, thing, for, you, and, I, to, explore, in the, debrief, is, if, this, is, actually, a winnable, battle, it, feels, like, the, the armies, of, web, 2, are, definitely, stacked against, web, 3, and, uh, want, to, see, if, we

can, overcome, web, 2's, Network, effect, and actually, succeed, here, so, we, got, a, lot, to unpack, in, the, debrief, of, course, that, is our, episode, after, the, episode, and, you can, join, as, a, bankless, citizen, and, get the, premium, RSS, feed, and, get, immediate access, to, that, guys, we're, getting, it right, to, the, episode, with, free, round, but before, we, do, we, want, to, thank, the sponsors, that, made, this, episode, possible including, Bagless, Nation, we, have, sriram Krishnan, on, the, podcast, he's, a, GP, at, a16 Z, crypto, whom, you, know, of, course, and, he is, a, self-described, Defector, of, web, 2, to web3, we're, definitely, going, to, talk

about, that, formerly, a, product, lead, at Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, he's, been, all over, the, place, three, of, them, has basically, seen, everything, there, is, to see, about, the, world, of, web, 2, and especially, web, 2, social, that's, going, to be, a, focus, of, today's, conversation, he also, hosts, a, podcast, with, his, wife covering, Tech, internet, creators, all sorts, of, things, like, that, so, he, knows, a thing, or, or, two, about, the, space, we, are in, Sri, Ram, welcome, to, bankless, how, are you doing, I'm, good, uh, I'm, sure, you, get this, a, lot, a, long, time, listener, YouTube stalker, first, time, caller, and, I, spent

last, night, binging, a, bunch, of, episodes as, I, was, uh, preparing, for, this, and, God, I feel, pressure, to, deliver, you, know, what okay, so, tell, us, what, was, um what, was your, what, what, episode, most, resonated with, you, what, uh, what, did, you, enjoy hearing, uh, well, there, are, a, few, which are, kind, of, thematic, I, think, what, you're talking, about, but, for, me, the, standard one, from, recent, times, is, the, one, with Eliza, right, she, was, actually, not, crypto but, I, was, riveted, uh, uh, and, mildly jealous, as, a, sort, of, a, fellow, podcast, so that, you, folks, actually, just, knocked, the

ball, out, of, the park, on, multiple, levels I, mean, Eliza, his, obvious, passion um, capturing, the, Zeitgeist, of, the, moment uh, Ryan, your, face, when, he, says, we're, not going, to, be, dead, and, you, and, and, uh, my favorite, part, oh, yeah, and, my, favorite part, and, I, can't, do, justice, to, it, and everyone, should, probably, watch, it, and listen, to, it, it, was, at, the, very, end, when you, go, what, is, the, takeaway, for, everyone and, he, says, and, but, just, like, I, don't think, this, will, help, we're, all, going, to be, dead, but, maybe, somebody, has, a, good idea, and, uh, I, I, think, it's, just, you, know

there's, a, lot, to, unpack, over, there, but, I think, in, terms, of, uh, have, a, great episode, which, captures, the, moment, and you, know, gets, people, talking, uh, you folks, knock, the, ball, out, of, the, park there, so, you, want, me, do, you, mind, it because, whenever, someone, brings, up, that episode, I, have, to, ask, I, can't, not, ask, so what, did, you, think, coming, out, of, that episode, like, I, know, you're, into, AI, as well, like, you, kind, of, dabble um, what, is, he, right, what's, going, on, who should, we, talk, to, like, I, still, feel, like a, tremendous, amount, of, uh, discordance

coming, out, of, that, conversation, like, I don't, know, if, he's, right, or, not, we, have some, episodes, coming, up, we're, gonna, more deeply, explore, that, that, uh, discussion have, maybe, the, Counterpoint, on, but, what was, your, take, I, mean, are, you, just, like left, with, with desolation, and, and, like do, you, think, he, could, be, right, here, so, a few, darts, first, you, know, uh, I'm, about, to turn, 40, soon, and, one, of, the, things, I've grown, to, appreciate, is, people, who believe, in, a, cause, and, whether, you, agree or, disagree, with, elizer, and, um which, we

can, get, into um it, is, obvious, that, he, is, scared, about this, for, a, very, long, period, of, time, and I, just, find, something, very, inspiring about, somebody, who, does, that, and, just kind, of, put, his, life's, work, and, energy into, one, thing um, and, so, I, think, that's, just, impressive you, know, anything, that, really, comes about, that's, number, one, uh, uh, number, two is, I, would, say, uh, I, think, Eliza, is Raising, some, important, questions, the challenge, is, uh, it's, hard, to, and, he's obviously, a, much, smarter, person, than, me

or, a, lot, of, people, spend, a, lot more, time thinking, about, it, for, sure, the, challenge for, me, is, to, reconcile, one, the, obvious benefits, that, AI, can, bring, which, anybody who's, writing, code, using, co-pilot, now, on vs, code, can, obviously, testify, to, that like, I, have, written, production, code, in 10, years, and, I, am, no, productive, so, uh I've, seen, people, get, health, diagnosis, uh which, are, maybe, saving, lives, so, the obvious, benefits, that, are, possible, with also, reconcile, the, possibility, of, a, long tail, risk, that, might, kill, us, all, so, I

think, he's, an, important, addition, to, the conversation, I, don't, know, how, to disprove, what, he, says, to, which, always kind, of, worries, me um, when, you, know, it's, kind, of, hard, for me, to, have, a, discussion, where, I'm, like well, how, do, I, actually, disprove, this like, what, is, the, evidence, that, would change, somebody's, mind, I, actually, think this, also, ties, into, crypto, which, we, can maybe, get, into, because, I, think, one question, of, which, allies, are, well, one kind, of, question, comes, out, of, this, is okay, if, air, is, going, to, be, such, a, force who, controls, it, uh, you, know, who, how, is it, going, to, be, the, domain, of, a, few, small

companies, which, can, raise, hundreds, of millions, of, dollars, or, you, know, or, have access, resources, or, is, it, going, to, be something, which, all, of, us, can, I'm, you know, I'm, on, a, MacBook, Pro, uh, M2, you, know laptop, right, now, can, I, run, some, version of, it, here, can, I, partake, in, it, can, I, get credit, for, the, data, that, goes, and, switch all, ties, into, the, crypto, ether, so, I think, I, I, I, would, say, this, I'm, happy that, Eliza, exists, I, think, is, pushing, the conversation, forward um, and, uh, uh, but, you, know, I, don't, think there's, the, end, of, the, discussion, yeah, I don't, think, anyone, can, emerge, from, that

podcast, episode, uh, in, denial, that Eliezer, believes, exactly, what, he, says that, he, believes, to, to, the, full, extent of, that, uh, and, I, think, that's, actually what, made, it, such, a, fun, podcast, episode is, like, man, we, are, speaking, right, to, the soul, of, this, man, who, really, cares, about like, tunnel, vision, cares, about, this, one thing, in, particular, uh, so, just, from, a from, a, Content, podcasting, perspective, it definitely, like, struck, the, chord, there and, it's, true, I, I, kind, of, see, a, little bit, of, that, in, you, um, nothing, to, do, with with, AI, but, I, think, I, I, when, you, say, you

tell, me, that, you, have, a, very, uh, respect for, people, that, really, believe, in, a cause, uh, I'm, guessing, that, that's because, you, have, a, similar, cause, and, so maybe, maybe, a, question, to, you, is, like what, what, do, you, feel, strongly, about that, is, your, equivalent, to, eleazar's, AI alignment, problem, what's, your, alignment problem, in, the, world, first, we, disrespect to, Eliza, because, he's, been, doing, this for, 20, years, I, think, and, uh, I, can't claim, any, such, credit, but, for, me, and just, to, briefly, kind, of, recap, my personal, story, because, I, think, this, ties into, this, uh, you, know, I, grew, up, in, like

kind, of, a, small, part, of, India, and, the internet, was, basically, the, only, reason you, know, my, career, uh, and, pretty, much every, good, thing, in, my, life, exists, uh, I met, my, now, wife, who's, my, co-host, online 21, years, ago, because, you're, trying, to build, a, website, together, we, were, unknown and, thankfully, you, know, before, the, word announced, a, thing, and, we, met, and, we've been, together, for, 20, years, I, wrote, a random, blog, post, with, somebody, at Microsoft, saw, got, me, and, her, hired, uh flew, to, the, US, and, set, off, like, a, bunch of, career, opportunities, and, things, which

honestly, like, we, wouldn't, be, having, this conversation, if, the, internet, and, the technology, didn't, exist, and, my, childhood was, very, much, writing, random, code, right I, would, write, my, own, browser, my, own email, client, and, just, participating, in my, dinky, bedroom, and, uh, fast, forwarding a, few, years, I, spent, the, last, 10, years, as you, alluded, to, deep, in, the, belly, of, the beast, of, the, large, social, media companies, I'm, a, nerdy, Thanos, collecting The, Infinity, Gauntlet, of, uh, uh, social media, anyway um, and, uh, so, how, many, how, many, do, you

have, now, on, your, Gauntlet, right, like right, here, uh, three, uh, but, then, I stopped, uh, didn't, finish, the, gauntlet but, I, spent, a, few, years, at, Meda, what, was called, Facebook, I, run, a, lot, of, their, ad products, I, spent, a, year, at, snap, and maybe, most, interesting, I, spent, a, few years, at, Twitter, where, I, ran, home timeline, search, Trends, explore, a, lot, of things, which, has, algorithms, and, pixels which, I, think, uh, really, ties, into, it, and now, I, want, to, be, clear, I, liked, a, lot, of my, time, there, I, think, there, are, a, lot, of amazing, smart, people, uh, who, worked, there uh, I'm, still, close, friends, with, a, lot, of

them, but, uh, when, I, left, Twitter um, and, I, was, trying, to, think, of, like, you know, one, of, the, reasons, I, think, I, wound up, leaving, was, I, was, not, thrilled, uh with, what, was, happening, in, the, state, of development, and, the, state, of, product, and there, are, a few, things, which, I, didn't couldn't, clearly, articulate, and, one, in the, last, two, years, spending, time, with crypto, I've, now, kind, of, totally articulated, so, I, love, Twitter, and, I, was trying, to, figure, out, what, I, want, to, do with, my, life, uh, I, met, a, few, Folks, at, uh a16g, the, firm, I, work, for, uh, Mark, Chris

uh, christickson um and, who, heads, up, the, crypto, fund, here and, Ben, uh, they, got, me, here, and, I, think a, lot, of, credit, goes, to, Chris, Dixon, who I, think, you've, had, on, the, show, before, uh Chris, really, crypto, pilled, me, and, this kind, of, goes, into, the, heart, of, you, know why, I, call, us, a, Defector, now, my, day, job is, to, find, work, with, amazing, Founders, uh you, know, who, build, amazing, companies that's, my, day, job, but, I, do, think, for crypto, everyone, has, a, bit, of, an ideological, calling, I, like, to, think, of

it, as, a, church, right, where, you, have different, paths, to, it, and, if, you, look, at crypto, there, are, very, different, people kind, of, different, paths, I, talked, to biology, uh, who's, a, friend, he's, been, here for, eight, years, that's, not, me, Chris Dixon, been, here, for, nine, ten, years, he's involved, in, crime, base, and, Los, Angeles that's, not, me, others, to, know, about, hang out, in, The, Cypher, Punk, mailing, list, like 15, years, ago, right, like, uh, that's, not, me either, but, my, path, was, I, saw, you, know the, challenges, that, centralization, of social, media, can, cause, and, I, was, a, part of, it, right, like, I, worked, on, a, lot, of these, systems, I, have, developed, a, lot, of these, systems, I, was, in, the, to, miss, Court

Hamilton, room, where, it, happens, for, a bunch, of, these, and, um, and, I, saw, a, bunch of, things, where, I, was, like, oh, there's some, real, downsides, here, and, with, crypto for, the, first, time, I, was, like, well, that is, an, alternate, path um, and, and, if, we, don't, do, something um, as, a, technology, Community, uh, really uh, the, childhood, version, of, me, couldn't exist, right, the, person, who, was, just writing, code, and, by, the, way, when, I, wrote code, in, 15, years, old, I, didn't, know, how to, get, an, API, key, I, didn't, have, to, call up, a, BD, team, I, just, wrote, it, on, my shitty, little, computer, in, in, nowhere

town, in, India, and, like, that, person couldn't, exist, so, uh, so, I, think, like, a lot, of, things, when, we, can, get, into, like decentralized, social, etc, etc, like, are really, critical, and, important, for, to, are the, future, of, the, internet, so, that, my cause, and, you, know, I'm, very, lucky, to have, a, day, job, which, ties, to, it, it's your, room, that's, really, profound, I, guess like, what, you're, saying, is, the, internet that, of, your, childhood, the, internet, that spawned, all, of, this, opportunity, for, you personally, and, you, know, thousands, of others, hundreds, of, thousands, of, others this, podcast, even, would, not, be, possible you're, saying, that, that, permissionless

internet, that, you, grew, up, on, no, longer exists, or, maybe, exists, as, a, shadow, of what, it, once, was, and, your, cause, your, Les are, Level, conviction, is, to, bring, about that, internet, the, internet, that, you, grew up on, it, and, pass, it, to, Future Generations, is, is, that, that's, kind, of what, I'm, the, spirit, of, what, I'm, catching from, you, is, that, is, that, right absolutely, uh, and, again, by, the, way, a laser, much, smarter, much, deeper, than, me so, uh, I, wouldn't, want, to, uh, insult, him

by, clinically, similar, but, I, do, think, uh my, cause, is, quasi-religious, uh, I'll, give you, an, example, like, the, very, piece, of first, piece, of, code, I, wrote, when, I, was 14, years, old, whereas, I, looked, at, the HTTP, spec, and, I, was, like, I'm, going, to write, a, web, browser, right, and, it, was, a terrible, web, browser, but, guess, what nobody, stopped, me, there, were, like, no, API Keys, No, BD, team, nothing, just, like, open source, Tech, that, you, kind, of, adapted, and of, course, I, don't, think, it, open, till it's, even, a, word, then, right, like, I, think it, was, like, lunatic, was, there, uh, I, think

free, software, was, a, thing, thanks, to Richard, Solomon, and, Erica's, Raymond, and a, bunch, of, those, people, but, just, the, way things, work, right, like, you, know, if, you wanted, an, email, client, like, I, used, to write, gnu, email, extensions, and, talk, to SMTP, and, IMAP, servers, and, that, was, my email, address, right, like, it, was, very, bad code um, and, so, on, and, so, that, was, just, the way, the, internet, worked, uh, I, hung, out, a lot, on, like, Usenet, um and, so, on, and, by the, way, for, me, you, know, I, didn't, speak English, very, well, then, I, had, really, no access, to, resources, that, was, very important, like, to, actually, get, exposure to, Western, culture, on, the, internet, now

fast, forward, now um, there, is, absolutely, no, way, like, you can, build, uh, let, us, say, an, alternative Instagram, point, or, an, alternative, Tick Tock, light, there, is, no, way, you, can, say well, I, want, to, modify, Tick, Tock, and, I want, to, use, my, own, algorithm um, and, learn, something, that, way, you can't, do, that, and, whether, it, is, for, just to, play, with, it, which, I, think, is, super important, or, whether, it, because, you, want to, have, a, choice, whether, it, is, because, I think, there's, an, upsell, and, a, downside discussion, on, the, upside, uh, it, is, about like, can, you, bring, in, new, innovative ideas, right, like, with, SMTP, by, the, way

right, like, Gmail, didn't, need, to, go, ask someone, for, permission, when, Paul, book height, launched, Gmail, on, April, 1st, 2004 they, just, built, it, and, Gmail, changable, I mean, I'm, very, dating, myself, here, like Gmail, changed, email, that, day, right, they didn't, ask, somebody, for, permission, right and, then, that, cost, everyone, else, kind, of build, cool, new, things um, so, imagine, if, we, could, take, any, one of, these, centralized, social, media platforms, and, say, you, know, what we're going, to, innovate, on, top, right, and, we don't, need, to, call, up, uh, you, know, the CEO, of, tick, tock, or, the, CCP, or Zuckerberg, or, Elon, or, whoever, for permission, that's, on, the, upside, the

downside, I, would, say, is, uh, not, getting rugged, uh, you, know, when, I, I, was, you, know on, like, when, I, was, a, kid, I, didn't, have to, worry, about, somebody, taking, my, web browser, access, right, but, I, bet, like, you folks, have, expenses, you, are, kicked, off YouTube, and, I, think, if, you, are, in popular, and, if, you, haven't, been, able, to kind, of, kick, up, a, storm, on, Twitter you, would, not, be, able, to, get, back, and even, my, wife, and, I, who, you, know, I, mean not, saying, we, are, like, powerful, or famous, but, we, have, some, say, we, worry when, we, have, somebody, on, the, show, who talks, about, covet, lab, leaks, and, we're like, is, this, going, to, get, de-ranked somehow, like, don't, really, know, for, sure

right um and, are, we, going, to, get, removed, and there, is, this, kind, of, this, fear, which happens, all, the, time, so, I, kind, of, think it's, both, in, the, upside, limiting Innovation, which, used, to, happen, a, lot, on the, downside, you, know, you, could, get, rug the, platform, canceled, removed, banned suspended, Shadow, band, that's, the resilient, words, any, point, in, time, so that's, what, you, know, I, think, that's, what I, want, to, fix, yeah, Ryan, called, this, the uh, the, permissionless, internet, is, no longer, available, to, uh, your, your, child self, if, your, child, self, was, around, today the, the, words, that, came, to, my, mind, are um

defy, and, nfts, and, blockchains, are, these like, it's, a, Sandbox, it's, a, Sandbox, for developers, that, uh, you, know, a, strapping young, imaginative, kid, could, come, in, and start, to, build, build, a, sand, castle, uh and, that's, really, why, why, this, world, of crypto, is, so, cool, is, that, it's, just, this endless um, canvas, for, people, with, imaginations to, start, to, to, paint, upon, and, especially young, folk, uh, who, have, like, the imaginations, and, are, no, longer, bounded by, adulthood, have, the, best, like

opportunities, to, to, create, something, new uh, and, so, the, the, what, I'm, hearing, uh from, from, this, part, of, the, story, is, that just, there, is, no, there's, not, much, canvas left, in, the, world, of, Twitter, or Instagram, or, or, Facebook, you're, kind, of already, given, your, confined, box, of, what you, can, paint, and, how, you, can, paint, and what, what, your, tools, are, and, I, think what, I'm, hearing, three, run, from, you, is that, uh, if, you, were, a, kid, these, days, you just, don't, have, as, much, creative, Outlet in, the, world, of, developing, something, or just, being, present, online, how, do, these

words, resonate, with, you, I, think, it's profound, I, think, Whenever, there, is, an API, key, uh, something, is, broken um, um, it, because, it, means, that, somebody can, you, need, to, ask, someone's, permission um, I, think, the, word, kids, and, playing with, it, uh, May, undersell, how, important it, is, for, just, kind, of, harnessing, the collective, human, creative, Spirit, right like, you, want, you, know, young, people anywhere, to, go, play, on, Star, play, on, it you, never, know, what's, going, to, break, out you, never, know, what's, going, to, be, a, hit but, that's, sort, of, the, magic, of, the internet, and, computer, science, and, we, all

kind, of, um, grown, with, that um so, uh, for, me, right, like, some, of, the questions, I, get, and, I'm, sure, you, get like, as, a, crypto, person, now, is, what, is the, use, case, of, crypto, right, and, I always, try, and, split, this, into, two, parts and, I'm, like, well, these, things, are busted, in, the, way, centralized, platforms work, today, right, and, we, can, talk, about like, for, example, even, last, week, the whole, Tick, Tock, curing, was, kind, of, an example, of, this, right, and, I, think, crypto and, there, will, be, other, Solutions, which you, can, talk, about, I, think, crypto, is, an ideal, answer, to, these, problems, but, let's just, kind, of, agree, on, where, the, problem exists, because, I, think, the, problem, is

profound, and, maybe, if, I, can't, even, sell you, on, crypto, that's, fine, but, I, just want, like, people, everywhere, to, be, able to, write, code, on, their, laptops, without do, you, need, to, ask, for, people, I, just agree, on, that yeah, just, for, I, remember, in, my, early days, of, my, crypto, journey, I, actually didn't, understand, what, an, API, key, was and, and, understanding, what, it, is, now, I do, I, do, get, what, you, mean, when, you, say if, something, turns, into, an, API, key, we've lost, something, but, can, you, just, really unpack, that, one, uh, just, to, make, it, like an, explain, like, I'm, five, metaphor, yeah sure, so, uh, so, uh, what, kind, of, History

lesson, here, like, if, you, look, at, the, way the, 90s, the, original, internet, work, um and, by, the, way, a, lot, of, this, has, steal from, Chris, Dixon, in, his, episode, and other, podcasts, he's, great, about, this, so uh, credit, to, him, um, a, lot, of, the internet, was, protocols, right, HTTP, SMTP IMAP, and, the, way, it, kind, of, worked, is you, know, there, was, a, protocol, spec, there were, a, bunch, of, servers, and, as, long, as you, kind, of, adhere, to, the, spec, anybody could, issue, a, request, over, TCP, over, the network, and, talk, to, it, and, just, kind, of make, it, work, sometimes, they, need, payment um, um, you, know, sometimes, you, need, I remember, once, paying, for, a, Usenet, server which, was, kind, of, a, big, deal, when, I, was

kind, of, a, random, kid, in, India, but, like you, know, usually, anybody, could, go, ping, a server, now, somewhere, along, the, last, 15 years, that, changed, and, you, had, the, world where, well, a, lot, more, of, these, things are, going, to, stay, behind, a, Walled, Garden um, and, um, and, to, get, access, you, need, to get, an, API, key, which, basically, means that, you, can, now, issue, a, request, to, the server, using, the, key, and, you, have, to play, within, a, certain, sandbox, now, I, I don't, want, to, my, choice, of, language, to

somehow, say, that, these, people, are, evil or, doing, bad, things, it's, just, that, the world, moved, to, the, cloud, the, world, moved to, like, the, few, things, that, happened, one the, cloud, happened, so, you, had, a, lot, of things, happening, behind, data, centers, two was, a, lot, of, these, Services, started competing, with, each, other, and, I, was, at this, and, I, was, on, these, last, social media, companies, and, well, if, I, have, a network, effect, I, don't, want, my competitor, to, steal, my, network, effect right, so, if, you, were, for, example, in, the early, days, of, Twitter, and, Instagram, they could, both, log, into, each, other's, service using, each, other's, ID, and, you, could, say

like, I, want, to, follow, all, of, my Instagram, friends, on, Twitter, and, vice versa, and, definitely, the, vice, versa, was true, but, then, people, like, well, we compete, with, these, books, we, don't, want that, so, you, started, having, like, more restrictions, the, third, part, of, it, was, um you, know, a, lot, of, people, are, searching for, business, models, for, a, long, period, of time, and, the, business, model, which, a, lot of, these, internet, companies, want, upon, um and, one, I, know, I, think, you, folks, are, not fans, of, but, I, am, a, fan, of, because, I, used to, work, on, this, was, ads um, and, But, If, You, and, I, by, the, way, I have, a, whole, other, thing, about, why, I actually, ads, is, not, as, maybe, as, awful, as some, people, think, they, are, but, if, you, go

on, if, your, business, model, is, ADS, you need, to, control, the, pixels, on, which people, experience, your, product, because that's, where, the, ad, shows, up, so, you can't, actually, let, someone, build, an alternative, client, because, the, first thing, they'll, do, is, have, a, product, where you, can, have, ads, the, next, time, you, talk to, Nike, or, Proctor, and, Gamble, you'll, be like, hey, I, paid, a, lot, of, money, but, a, lot of, people, that, are, not, seeing, my, ads like, WhatsApp, right, like, so, it, just breaks, the, system, itself, so, a, bunch, of these, SEC, things, happen um, none, of, these, books, are, evil, it's just, like, you, know, they're, all, amazing smart, people, it's, just, the, way, the internet, got, built, out, but, as, over, time you, know, the, sandbox, that, you, could, play

got, really, restricted, like, I, remember like, f8, uh, the, Facebook, conference, maybe the, first, one, maybe, 2008, 2009, you, could do, a, lot, of, things, with, Facebook, at, the time, you, could, publish, things, on anyone's, feed, you, could, read, their friends, contact, if, you, go, try, today, it's much, more, locked, down, right, there's, a bunch, of, reasons, there, where, uh, privacy controversies, there, were, comparative issues, the, ads, issues, it's, very, limited and, you, really, can't, build, an alternative, Facebook, client, today, and, I don't, think, Tick, Tock, even, has, an, API which, lets, you do, that, so, that's, what, I mean, by, an, API, key, where, you, have, this pattern, where, uh, what, used, to, be, hey, let

me, just, go, ping, a, server, I, can, do whatever, I, want, it's, now, like, well, I'm gonna, have, this, particular, rails, on which, I, can, play, which, uh, is, a, lot, more control, than, it, used, to, be, the, the metaphor, of, uh, hierarchy, or, uh, a, tower versus, a, Town, Square, comes, to, mind, where in, the, early, days, of, web, 2, all, of, these web, 2, protocols, were, talking, to, each other, just, you, know, sending, around messages, they, were, integrating, with, each other, but, it, the, what, you, the, story, that you, described, kind, of, progresses, from, uh collaborative, and, open, environment, where Twitter, and, Instagram, can, share, their

social, graphs, but, then, all, of, a, sudden the, the, the, forces, set, in, the, forces that, you, know, control, the, world, the competitive, forces, capitalistic, forces uh, set, in, and, all, of, a, sudden, the, Town Square, goes, into, a, hierarchy, goes, into the, the, tower, and, all, of, a, sudden, that's kind, of, where, we, find, ourselves, today where, each, of, one, of, these, uh, web, 2 Gargantuans, is, a, siled, tower, that doesn't, want, you, to, transcend, across, the Town, Square, to, a, different, Tower yeah, absolutely, which, is, why, I, think when, we, talk, about, anything, to, fix, this like, the, incentive, structure, from, Day

Zero, is, super, important, which, is, how, do you, align, incentives, to, stop centralization, to, stop, the, tower, like for, example, I, was, watching, The, Tick, Tock hearings, uh, The, Tick, Tock, CEO, last, week um, and, we, can, maybe, get, into, one, thing which, struck, me, was, how, similar, the hearings, are, when, every, social, media, CEO shows, up, for, one, of, these, it, is, always um, um, um, and, by, the, way, obviously, the issues, the, CCP, in, China, are, very different, from, say, what, Zuckerberg, had to, do, uh, but, it's, very, similar, like, hey what, are, you, doing, with, my, data

um, how, do, I, know, who, got, censored, or de-platformed, um, sometimes, explicitly sometimes, implicitly, how, do, I, trust, you right, and, then, um, you, know, you, can, they usually, say, a, bunch, of, things, but, there is, really, no, easy, way, to, validate, to prove, or, disprove, it um, like, for, example, right, like, I, you, I don't, think, there's, any, data, which, comes out, where, you, can, prove, definitely, or disprove, definitely, whether, the, CCP, is actually, having, influence um and, so, one, of, the things, that, I, you know, I, I'm, hoping, that, we, can, fix, as, a technology, community, and, you, know

spoiler, it, I, think, crypto, is, the, answer to, this, is, how, do, you, have, things, which are, verifiable, where, we, don't, have, to take, someone's, word, for, it, or, we, don't need, to, send, you, know, uh, uh, uh, like, a legal, team, in, but, anybody, sitting, at home, can, prove, oh, you, know, what, I, can see, how, the, algorithm, works, I, can, see what, the, levers, that, were, pulled, I, can see, who, is, Shadow, band, band, and, I, can now, make, up, my, own, mind, whether, that, was valid, or, not um, and, by, the, way, if, I, don't, like, it maybe, I, can, build, my, own, algorithm, or, my own, client, in, an, Ideal, World, so, I'm, kind

of, struck, by, how, similar, these testimonies, and, hearings, are, yeah, I, uh you, know, I, was, thinking, we, could, start with, Twitter, but, actually, I, want, to reverse, that, and, maybe, start, with, with Tick, Tock, as, a, case, study, of, this because, I, I, think, we're, you, know bankless, listeners, having, heard, some content, in, the, past, and, being, in, crypto I, mean, uh, we, believe, you, sriram, right like, somehow, the, internet, has, taken, a wrong, turn, we, we've, we've, got, um, a, whole bunch, of, API, keys, that, can, be, rugged instead, of, like, rugless, protocols, that

the, original, internet, was, was, really built, on um, I, I, want, to, go, to, The, Tick, Tock hearings, though, because, I, do, think, that is, a that, is, such, a, good, example, of, what's going, on, and, I, did, see, um, I, don't, know anybody, who, listened, to, the, entire hearings, that, that's, a, lot, but, I, I, got Clips, I, got, Snippets, and, every, time, I listen, to, something um, where, it's, it's, kind, of, you, know Congress, or, or, leaders, of, the, US government, grilling, some, sort, of, social media, CEO, you're, right, it's, the, exact same, conversation, I, feel, like, pulling, my hair, out, every, time, I, listen, to, it

because, it's, always, a, how, can, we, trust you, right, that, that's, what, that's, what Congress, says, and, then, the, CEO, says, you could, trust, us, because, XYZ, and, that, they say, but, how, you've, failed, in, like, all, of these, ways, and, the, CEO, says, no, we're, not really, failing, you, can, trust, us, because of, all, of, these, things, and, here's, what we'll, do, differently, it's, just, I, just want, to, go, go, back, and, and, just, say, to them, like, guys, why, don't, we, solve, this at, the, protocol, level, right, like, rather than, this, like, trust, I, don't, trust, you you, know, you, don't, trust, us, type, of relationship, where, you've, got, the

incentives, completely, aligned, why, don't we, do, something, like, um decentralized identity, image, imagine, that, like, imagine we, could, bake, in, like, privacy, at, sort, of the, the, protocol, the, the, root, layer, we didn't, even, have, to, worry, about, these types, of, conversations, that, I, feel, like Regulators, always, want, to, to, hit, this with, regulatory, cudgel, like, even, the example, of, um I, don't, know, if, you've seen, the, restrict, act, uh, for, example right, so, this, is, sort, of, the, answer, to tick, tock, and, there's, this, idea, I, don't

know, if, it's, going, to, pass, actually, but it, seems, probable, maybe, likely, that, the US, is, actually, going, to, ban, Tick, Tock right, whether, you, think, that's, a, good idea, or, a, bad, idea, or, where, you, sit, on kind, of, whether, CCP, is, surveilling, our data, or, not, like, no, company, should, have not, domestic, companies, shouldn't, have the, ability, to, do, this, so, I, guess, I, want to, get, your, your, kind, of, take, what, what what, do, you, think, why, are, these, uh social, media, CEOs, always, on, the, hot, seat right um, how, can, we, actually, solve, this problem, at, the, protocol, or, or, the, root

level, if, you, want, to, use, tick, tock, as, an example, or, or, you, know, something, like Twitter, or, you, know, so, uh um, Mark, Zuckerberg, and, what's, going, on with, with, Cambridge, uh, analytica, and, all of, that, I, mean, it's, the, same, example over, and, over, again, but, how, do, we, get out, of, this, how, do, we, solve, this, at, the protocol, level, well, okay, so, there's, a lot, to, unpack, that, first, of, all, I, think if, there's, anybody, like, later, watching this, you, know, my, my, board, would, I, mean sort, of, frustrating, thing, I, want, to, see is, like, hey, let, us, make, up, our, own, minds for, ourselves, right, because, every

testimony, is, a, version, of, we, think, you did, things, to, people, that, we, don't, agree with, right, um, whether, it's, a, Chinese government, you, know, impacting, us, whether it, is, um, you, know, um, Twitter, maybe, uh disproportionately, going, after, people, on the, right, or, on, the, left, or, Facebook, was similar, it's, always, some, version, of, the same, conversation, and, the, first, thing, I want, to, come, you, know, and, you, can, by, the way, smart, people, can, reasonable, people can, disagree, based, on, evidence, on, each of, these, but, that's, besides, the, point the, first, thing, I, want, to, say, well, let's start, with, help, letting, us, make, up, our

minds, for, ourselves, right, so, what, if there, was, a, world, where, uh, and, let's, you know, I, think, the, protocol, let's, let's imagine, sort, of, a, sliding, scale, of verifiability, and, you, know, decentralized trust, right, let, us, start, with, okay, let's even, set, aside, protocols, for, a, second, um imagine, you, know, if, you, are, uh, Facebook or, Twitter, or, Instagram, or, Tick, Tock right, now, by, starting, tomorrow, we, said that, you, have, to, publish, a, few, things, uh number, one, you, have, to, make, your algorithm, open, source, which, I, think, is very, doable, uh, because, I've, seen, on, it

on, the, inside, it's, very, doable, so, um, and a, lot, of, smart, people, on, the, internet who, can, break, it, apart, and, you, know, and look, at, it, number, two, every, single, time you, make, a, account, action, change, right either, explicit, or, implicit um, you, are, going, to, say, you, know, somehow commit, that, you're, going, to, make, it public, so, for, example, when, uh, you, know uh, uh, Bank, list, was, taken, off, YouTube um, it, that, was, easy, because, that, was explicit, you, knew, I, think, the, more Insidious, ones, are, when, you're, subtly d-ranked, Shadow, band, if, you, want, to, use that, phrase, because, you, don't, even, know

what, happened, you, just, think, maybe, my episode, was, shitty, but, actually, turns out, it, was, trickling, something, and, you don't, know, right, I, think, so, having, every one, of, those, actions, published, publicly kind, of, like, a, court, of, record, I, think is, super, critical, third, is, a, right, to recourse, what, you, folks, did, and, what, I do, if, something, happens, is, like, VL, on Twitter, or, we, call, up, a, friend, and, we're all, Lucky, sometimes, our, infringed friends, who, can, help, us, a, lot, of, people don't, but, a, recourse, where, you, can, say hey, I, want, to, see, the, evidence, against me, and, I, want, to, appeal, it, um and, I think, if, we, just, get, these, and, these, are probably, very, possible, with, low, amounts

of, work, by, everybody, like, that's, kind, of just, a, good, uh, first, step, and um, and, sometimes, when, they, want, to, talk to, people, they, don't, actually, understand why, this, is, necessary, they're, like, well isn't, this, for, like, the, crazy, people, on the, left, or, the, right, who, are, saying very, provocative, things, like, this, won't matter, to, me, it's, kind, of, like, one response, I, often, get, like, another, fun story, from, inside, Twitter um, which, is, uh, you, know, when, I, was, a Twitter, I, ran, uh, you, know, I, hit, up, the product, team, for, like, Trends, moments, a bunch, of, stuff, on, Twitter, and, one, day, I woke, up, and, I, saw, a, news, story, which, had