Anthony Pompliano - Bitcoin, Portfolio for 2024, Institutional Adoption & Crypto Tribalism

and so like if I said to you like what is the quintessential bitcoiner right it's like okay they own Bitcoin they eat meat they like sun their balls right you we can just like go down the L I know there's this whole last one a real thing yeah I mean yeah you get you get tea from doing that yeah you get higher testosterone like there's this whole thing welcome to bank list where we explore the frontier of Internet money and internet Finance this is Ryan Sean Adams I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more bankless Anthony Pano on the show today

he's better known to us as pomp he's an investor he's a media personality uh I think he's probably most known to the crypto Community for his Relentless Bitcoin evangelism and has certainly been Relentless over the years and that's where David and I first ran across him in 2017 he was preaching the good word of Bitcoin and sometimes he gave us Flack for some of our ethereum bullishness I would say we've recorded this conversation just before the Bitcoin happening it'll be released just after and uh that's really where we started the conversation how is this

happening this Bitcoin happening different from the rest we also get into what it's like to talk about Bitcoin to the suits on CNBC and then the Bitcoin ETF where's it going we also talk about Bitcoin evangelism who is left to convince here and the bare Market of 2022 what did pomp learn finally we end with a download on Pomp's crypto portfolio what that looks like in 2024 his predictions for price and his predictions for the upcoming US election pomp I remember Ryan watching pomp kind

of rise in 2018 through 2020 2021 uh as the Bitcoin evangelist right like really putting out content that was educating about Bitcoin the Bitcoin narrative Bitcoin thesis 21 million hard cap uh low time preferences right uh and this just felt like a flashback to some like very early formative Bank list leaders CU I think both you and I were like watching pomp do this like media machine that he just figured out this like system of uh just like uh like Rising on

Twitter and then Rising as a podcast and Rising as a businessman like learning about memes uh and so like a lot of it was like early flashback to like some of the things that I think like bankless was um built on like understanding memes understanding the the importance of virality uh importance of like incepting ideas into people's heads so a lot of this just felt like really old school like early Beginnings for me even getting into the crypto space I don't know if that's how it felt like for you but like I was getting like flashbacks during this episode yeah I I totally get that and I I guess there's maybe some

pomp influence over uh bankless in some ways uh though though certainly I think and maybe famously at the time we really departed on his ideas for um ethereum uh he he was very bearish at least publicly on E at that time and so there was kind of a contrast between like Pomp and bankless in those early years but I think we've put a lot of that be behind us and and there's actually a refreshing conversation that um we asked pomp about how he evaluates Bitcoin culture right now and what his thoughts are and maybe how he's reformed or moderated some of

his views over time so that's an interesting part of this conversation there's uh plenty of material here that I want to talk to you about the the debrief I already have some notes for the debrief so we're going have to go and get into that right now but first before we get into the episode with pomp a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors bankas Nation we've got Anthony Pompano he is a Bitcoin bull he is an investor he is a fellow podcaster he is a media personality is there anything he is not I don't know pomp welcome to bankless how are you guys doing long time coming I appreciate uh you guys having me has been a long time do you know I I think I first um

got to know you as being like the Bitcoin evangelist in 2017 2018 like the main person that was sort of uh telling the institutions to get off zero yeah beating the drum taking this message um to to the masses and this is going to come off come out either shortly before the Bitcoin happening or shortly after which is a big freaking deal and I want to uh start with this question what about this happening is different in

Bitcoin land like where are we on the kind of the trajectory of adoption that you have um been beating the drum about this entire time yeah well thank you guys for having me um a lot of people don't know this but I actually started out mining ethereum in uh 2016 um and I had didn't know anything about crypto so so like there was no pitch of like Bitcoin is going to be this great you know digital gold or Global Reserve currency ether it could have been you know I don't know video game like I I literally had no clue

about any of it uh but there was a a guy who came to me and he said hey you can buy these computers you can plug them in and it like prints money and I was like I mean that sounds ridiculous like where where are the where are the computers like how much do they cost and so like uh I think as many people who get into mining like uh you either do one or two things either you're very technical and you like go and you set it up start hooking up the computers and and kind of doing it yourself or you're just like more like Capital allocation and you basically like order computers you think they kind of got shipped somewhere someone's supposed to be hosting it you

have a dashboard and like it looks like you know ether is getting produced every day so I was in that second Camp um and at the time I think ether was like maybe like eight bucks and we were mining like five a day and I remember being like I'm never going to make back this money like we're making 40 bucks a day like oh my God this is like what did I do um and then in 2017 as you guys know better than most you know ether went from like $10 to 30 to like 100 by if I remember correctly like April or May of 2017 and

I remember being like Oh my God uh that $40 is now $400 a day we've already made back our money and um like most things in life you know too good to be true I sold it all at 150 and was like I'm a genius uh ran to 1400 too prideful to buy back in um but I tell that story because uh yeah I mean I was like you know I made some money I don't want to be the guy that fos back in but but what it allowed me to do was uh I got the like enthusiasm and I I got to see the positive side of like hey this stuff can

move there's people buying it really spend some time learning about it um and then I I did like a lot of work right like my wife always tells a story like she remembers me like having almost like a textbook right and I was like reading a book and she's like what are you doing I'm like I'm like studying and she's like you would never study for anything in your life outside of like something in finance so uh you know let's see what happens um and by the time 2018 rolled around um I think what I came to the conclusion was that like Bitcoin was going to serve as this like digital gold thing and it was going to uh be a store

of value and usually stores of value end up being kind of like all or nothing so you know I always say that dollars uh if you live in the United States like you don't carry Mexican pesos around right you don't care Bolivars or anything like you just use dollars you're paid in dollars you saving dollars you you spend in dollars Etc and then ethereum obviously I started mining it I was still you know paying a lot of attention to it but the thing that I was most excited about ethereum early on was um in the mining space uh I made the mistake of intellectually going long an idea but not actually acting on it which

was the world was going to run on gpus and so I have this like famous tweet in my head uh nobody else cares about it but I it's like the death blow I tweeted the world is going to run on gpus and uh it's because I was doing The Ether mining um I should have bought Nvidia like you know like how stupid am I and so it was this idea that like you could switch with the gpus theoretically between like maybe you want to mine ether today but all of a sudden may be more uh you know kind of economic to go and uh mine using um you know DNA

sequencing or uh self-driving cars like all these use cases that now I think are kind of becoming very popular now the reason why that mining is really important is obviously the Bitcoin mining side having really matters to those people and and there's a whole thing we can talk about um but also this world changes so fast the industry changes so fast that actually ethereum miners are no more right so if you think like if we had gone and built out data centers and like oh we're going to like switch back and forth between all this stuff whatever uh it may actually not

have been a good business because one huge part of that thesis like went away um and so on bitcoin's having uh I think maybe the only thing that I really can uh quantifiably point to that is is we hit an all-time high before the having like that feels like probably the the most important difference there's a lot of um uh kind of qualitative stuff that uh maybe people would point to that's like you know there's more institutional interest now mainstream media seems to think it's not going to go away so they're talking about it more

uh you could make an argument that like the holder base in general is more educated than they were in the last two you know uh havs um maybe also like expectations are higher it's like hey every having the price goes up so like it better go up this time and so people change their behavior which then could actually create it to go higher so again qualitative stuff we could debate but like quantitatively the only real difference is like maybe hash rate is the highest it's ever been and we hit the all-time high before the having and those two things seem to be uh pretty important remember listening to your

podcast and P back in um whenever it started 2018 2019 uh you were on this big campaign of get off zero get the institutions off zero uh and it was just like this very measured thing of like if we can just convince a marginal amount of Institutions to get 1% of their uh base their Investments and and put it into Bitcoin that has just massive implications to the price of Bitcoin just because 1% is a lot um and now here we are in 2024 and like now 1% is actually like 3% like institutions are now allocating 3% and so for a long time

we could get not get get off zero at all uh institutions were stuck at zero now they're just skipping to 3% which I think is very related to this uh fact that Bitcoin is at alltime highs before happening like it's because of the ETF right like it's it's because uh the outside world is now like not thinking that Bitcoin is this crazy thing anymore Bitcoin is now like civilized uh and just an overall theme of like since the Genesis of the bank list podcast has been one part of like crypto is actually moving more towards Society at the same

time Society is also moving more towards crypto like these two things are converging and there kind of seems to be this like hand of Adam god- touching Adam fingertip at the Bitcoin ETF and that's that's kind of to me like the way to like kind of Define this thing but the thing is like you've been you've been advocating for this future you were the first one so like what's it like to actually have been like at the beginning of that Arc like leading people here and that now actually is it as powerful as a moment as it as it seems because you this has been your campaign since Genesis the um the God and Adam finger

touching that's an fantastic analogy that's who's God and who's Adam yeah yeah I don't know God God is trafi and Adam is Bitcoin okay the other way around Larry it's definitely that way it's definitely that way yeah um so so first I would say like I I don't think I was the first to be like oh the institutions are going to buy this stuff whatever I I think maybe my uh my very small contribution was uh I have a small enough brain to come up with like uh memorable onliners that people they could go repeat so like you

know the marketing of that idea but definitely there was people before me that um you know were kind of banging the drum um and what I would say in terms of the in tions at the time uh what's the Pablo Picasso I think line it's like good artist borrow great artist steal I heard somewhere else that somebody had said like get off zero as a mantra uh about a different asset class and I was like that's amazing like I'm just going to repeat that here and you know hopefully it'll resonate um and so really the thought process was just like schmuck insurance right I think as what

like choth has called it or the the idea that like uh I think Satoshi early on wrote and said you know maybe you should get some just in case in case it catches on like that was really it it's just like what is the smallest amount possible that we could get you to break the seal cuz once you break the seal like then game on um and so just like it wasn't like do 1% right which like also could have been the like memorable line but it was like just get off zero like literally just buy one Bitcoin it's $3,000 or something right like just one now you're a Bitcoin holder if you're holding it you're going to pay attention

to it if you're paying attention to it you can't help but fall down the rabbit hole and so that was really kind of the the idea now I will tell you that um I went and in 2019 I did 120 flights around the world uh going and talking to institutions there was days where I would like fly to a city and I would talk to like three institutions in a single day wasn't just me you know Mark husco Jason Williams we had a team like we were just full court press there's not that many people who did it like you there were some but no I

mean like I don't know I'd have to go back and count exactly but it off the top of my head maybe we worked with like 10 institutions yeah but like maybe we met with 300 or 400 so like on a percentage conversion basis is like not that high and so what I I I always get reminded of that because um to see now what's happening you have to wonder how much of it was timing so like they just needed to get familiar with it and and time expiring actually just meant that hey the Lindy effect is here and like this isn't going to go away that had

some contribution two is there's probably some element of like they needed time to do the work internally the third one is you need the people who work in the institutions to become bitcoiners personally before they then go Advocate to convince the institution to be like a Bitcoin holder or an investor and we can talk about many stories where institutions literally there's like one person inside the organization they're the bitcoiner they convince their buddy their buddy convinces another person and the next thing you know is like half the team is holding Bitcoin or crypto in general and then they go and they do it as an

institution and then also you needed like a different form Factor like go on coinbase was never going to be a thing for an institution because they're that's just not what they do um we uh early on had a venture fund and we told institutions hey it's a venture fund we're going to invest in the equity of these companies but we're going to buy a little bit of Bitcoin like 15% give or take I think was the first fund the amount of effort that we had to do in diligence to explain that coinbase was a qualified custodian that was going to hold the Bitcoin that was like 80% of the diligence conversation so even

though coinbase of us was like oh of course this is like the safest thing possible like at least we're not on name your external you know International Exchange to them they were like I never heard of coinbase like what is that thing who owns it you know what what who's regulating it Etc and so I think that that's like really the Confluence of why the institutions finally have started to allocate is like you needed the ETFs to get approved you needed them to have time you needed people internally to buy Bitcoin and then you also uh in some weird way needed them to like have career risk removed by time and also tutor Jones bought it Stanley

Dre Miller bought it you know all these people like I don't know if they're wrong then we'll all be wrong together like you know it's kind of you know like misery loves company type thing that they all got comfortable and finally said yeah let's hit the bid and let's go buy some yeah I think a lot of people are looking at this just it felt like overnight suddenly Larry thinks on you like CNBC and he's saying like yeah you know Bitcoin is the future here's our Bitcoin ETF but what they don't realize is there there was this Confluence of like 6 years plus of effort and infrastructure that need to be built out

and evangelism and like individual uh brains that had to be like converted and turned onto this and I'm wondering if you could uh kind of compare and contrast right because you were on sort of the the media circuit as well I think in like 20 2017 2018 that that uh time period where um I I would see you on like uh CNBC and like squawkbox and this kind of thing and I that the tone the tone from some of the interviewers sometimes in trafi was just kind of like what you have what percent of your net

worth in crypto like what are you doing like here's this Biz here's this guy evangelizing about uh Bitcoin there was almost like kind of a um I don't know a smirk in the background of how they used to to approach Bitcoin that is much different now and some of these same anchors that I see in 2024 actually having arguments with Gary with with people like Gary gendler and people like Jamie Diamond reciting crypto talking points points that we used to talk about

in 2017 2018 and I know you've kind of Revisited um some of those some of those same shows this cycle what's what's the difference between last time and this time are they taking it more seriously has there been a tone difference have light bulbs clicked on like uh yeah give us a sense yeah I'll tell you a couple stories that probably can highlight this so uh the first time that I got asked to go on television I remember being like bam we did it like like we all made it we convinced them hear the message and convert of course like we're Geniuses

like thank you we finally all the work that we've done 2018 I go on television they absolutely ripped me a new one like yeah the price the I think we dropped Bitcoin from 20,000 to like 6,000 right and they're just teeing off on me and I remember walking off the set being like Oh I was the like punching bag scapegoat we have not made it guys actually it's the opposite like they we they are laughing at us so that kind does that

just make sense as in because like they're not going to report about it on the way up because they're not invested on on the way up and so on the way down they need to be right they need to like take a Victory lap yeah on the way up at like late late 2017 I think is when they really started to cover it there was it's interesting there's a number of people in crypto today um I can think of uh Camilo Russo um I think also Michael Casey uh a couple of others like they were working uh I think maybe both of them worked at Bloomberg and were actually living or covering uh currencies in Argentina like 2012 2013

and so they saw Bitcoin earlier they were some of the first people to write about it from like the you know traditional um mainstream media whatever um and so there were some people who were like kind of looking in and around it um but then there was like the talking points and I always like to uh uh give Joe Wiis uh Joe WIS all a hard time because he wrote a piece in 2013 he was like bitcoin's a joke and the picture's like a clown and then it was you know I don't 100 bucks and now it's at 70,000 um and so you know you had both sides of it now the second story I'll tell you about 2018 2019 is uh the

second time they invite me on um Kevin o is on uh the set and on the way there I'm listening to the show and he starts talking about crypto garbage instead of garbage he said garbage at least you guys are a little bit above the garbage but it's still you know nonsense and so uh to like highlight how these shows sometimes come together before the show's commercial break I walk out onto the set and uh him and I have never met before you know he I I could be somebody who's super nice I could be a complete [ __ ] he has no clue and we start

talking about Bitcoin and he says how how much of your dough is in this and I'm like you know more than 50% and his eyes like fell out of his head the the the producer says um you know 3 two one you know we're back to the show Kevin doesn't wait two seconds he just goes how much of your dough is in this like right on I say more than 50% and he just goes on a tie raid I forbid you from doing that that is insane and he's like going on and on and on and so I was like oh my God I'm like punching bag number two like this is going to be the the

difference now today what I will say is if I go on and let's say a crypto uh kind of skeptic comes on after me I think that the mainstream journalists host have gotten really good at is they will actually press me right so like Andrew Ros sorin in a recent uh uh segment he was like look I you know I went to South Africa I talked to a lot of people no one owns this stuff like you guys talk about it being adopted internationally like what do you say and you know I would put folks like that um in a camp if they are probably cautiously optimistic like they would like to see it work they actually think it could be a good thing for the world

but they're skeptical by nature and they're journalists so they're job is to ask you questions that push what you think or what you say and it's not you know it's not an opportunity for you to go and do PR right and so so they're doing the job of the journalist but then what happens is if you know uh let's say Jamie Diamond comes on they then flip around on the table and now all of a sudden they're advocating for the opposite of Jamie Diamond's view so what I think we sometimes as a community get sucked into is like we're all pro these assets and so when they push back we're like ah they're so dumb they don't understand but if you actually watch

when they're pushing against the uh the critics you have to realize like no they're just doing their job like they're going to play The Devil's Advocate to whoever's on the show there are some hosts as you guys alluded to that you know they're all in they own it Joe kernin probably being a great example um and so when the hosts start to debate each other about it I think we all kind of can you know laugh and say like wow we really maybe maybe we are here now uh where we don't even have to like do the debating we just let them debate for us um so so it's night and day difference but um again it's hard to debate against it if Paul tutor Jones

Stanley jocky Miller Larry f you know many well respected smart people I mean part of the cynical view here is um they weren't bullish on it and when I say they I mean trafi and kind of the entire apparatus around traditional Finance wasn't bullish on it because they didn't have products to sell they didn't have coinbase right and this time theys to sell so they've got ETFs the fastest gr ETFs that have like ever been ETF basically they've got like tokenized treasuries now and uh so like the

context for this is in this bull cycle we're in a completely different regime it seems like and what's your perspective on what the Bitcoin ETF did for the legitimacy not only of Bitcoin but the entire crypto asset class most people in crypto I think if you would have asked them last year they would have said Bitcoin is a commodity and uh there's not regulatory clarity about these other things so outside of their personal opinion they were like that's how the Regulators are looking at it um I don't think traditional Finance

looked at it that way I think traditional Finance said no all these assets don't have regulatory Clarity so they kind of put them all together and and they didn't have enough information or experience to kind of separate out how The Regulators were actually thinking about it or looking at it when the etf's got got approved now everyone walks around and they're like oh the ETFs mean that The Regulators have like approved Bitcoin now we all know that's not true it's not like they approve the the asset itself they're not telling people to go buy it but I think that is like a zero to one difference in people's minds so if you work your way

down kind of coin market cap list if a ethereum ETF gets approved I think trafi will then say Oh The Regulators have like blessed this asset Etc now one of the questions I think that that uh comes up in kind of the ETF approvals is Bitcoin has uh today a lot of unique things some people think those unique things are positive some think they're negative so proof of work uh blockchain there's not that many others that have those specific um kind of characters to it so when they approve Bitcoin there's

not a long line out the door of people saying well I'm just like Bitcoin I have proof of work I have this I have that whatever you know I should be the next one approved I do think that that is probably one of the headwinds for The Ether ETF is that if they approve a proof of stake blockchain there's a lot of other ones like that and they're all going to line up and say hey you know what about me doesn't mean that they have to approve the other ones I think it's just harder now to to decipher between the differences and so then I think lastly is um there's a very interesting Dynamic of um getting exposure to price versus

exposure to the asset so most people think of that is like I don't want to have to self- custody this right and so historically it's been like well maybe I can just pay coinbase to do custody or or whatever but you got to go sign up for a coinbase account you got to like figure out is coinbase the best one you got to like make sure the assets are still there do reporting whatever but if you go to like the nation states I actually think one of the most interesting parts of the ETF is like now Sovereign wealth funds can go and buy bitcoin price exposure but not have to take custody of the Bitcoin and so what they basically are doing is they're removing the

geopolitical conversation because if all of a sudden let's say name your country uh you know somewhere that maybe is like border line friendor foe if they start like hoarding Bitcoin I think there's a lot of people are going to be asking questions like hey why are you guys like buying the Bitcoin and like holding the Bitcoin do are you planning to go off the dollar like like what's up if instead you're just buying an ETF it's very obvious that you're just getting dollar like like price exposure you're not actually like taking control of the Bitcoin and so the reason why that's interesting is like El Salvador is taking self- custody

of their Bitcoin yeah and like the IMF does not appreciate that right that the central Bankers powers that be do not appreciate that fact yeah so like if you think of it from that perspective like the ETFs now have greenlit uh Sovereign wealth funds which I do believe they're buying the ETF and it's just like they're doing right they put a certain percentage in the S&P they put a certain percentage in QQQ they're going to put a certain percentage in Gold like it's just an allocation decision they just buy assets yeah I mean if you have a trillion dollars like what do you supposed to buy like you can't just buy

a trillion dollarss of you know Google right so like you you have to have a divers portfolio whatever but I do think that it now allows for the sidest stepping of the geopolitical complexity and allows you to get price exposure and so it it opens up this conversation of like how much of Wall Street and to your point of like now they have a product to sell is they want exposure to the price and to like the AUM but they don't give a [ __ ] about actual Bitcoin right and so like you know it's kind of like careful what you wish for because yeah you may be letting the fox in the hen house um

and sure like number goes up but what are the trade-offs and there probably are trade-offs that we don't yet understand right especially as you get deeper and deeper into some of the complex derivatives and things that can get created on this um I'm sure somebody's going to create a you know 2x or 3x leverage short Bitcoin ETF like what is the impact of that on price how does rebalancing which trifi loves like the intellectual you know Olympics for them of like when should you rebalance how often all that kind of stuff like that's new price pressure you know sell

pressure in the market so all these things are changing but at least in the beginning price goes up and and people are happy yeah we've we've often used the idea that the ETF is the erc20 token for trafi as in it like it makes BTC like a module a money Lego for the trafi world for them to play games with that's their money Lego and all of a sudden they can like stack on derivatives and derivatives and derivatives like the whole like not your keys not your coins thing is like a feature for them it's like please no keys just coins no keys um and so never heard that but that is F

that's the great analogy yeah that's 100% what what the ETF does right yeah so like maybe we can like double click on that for a little bit because I think bankless listeners will totally understand what like money Legos are inside of the ethereum context right you put your token in the protocol and then you put that in a different protocol and now you play your games and you wrap your yield and you optimize your yield uh and now this universe is like being opened up to trafy with Bitcoin as like the asset and we are just now in like the first ending of Bitcoin getting introduced into the trafi world so like

what what happens as this whole like ecos what does the Trad five money Lego ecosystem look like and what was what would like the future of Bitcoin look like when like they start to like play with their whole like money Lego that is Bitcoin the better it is as a like a dark hole the more money they make right so like there's a huge part of uh Wall Street which is like they actually don't want the retail person to understand the full thing because that means that they can't take fees and all these different uh components Etc but in the most basic sense I think you can think of maybe like three or four examples so like one

is like they just buy the ETF so like there's a Lego there's not a Lego right okay hey I can buy the Lego like okay that that's one thing you get price exposure to this asset that is way more asymmetric on the upside and downside than anything else they have and like that'll be interesting in some components the second thing um and I think we're starting to see it now is now I have almost a uh return amplifier so now I could take this ETF thing and I kind of like sprinkle it in all my portfolio so oh I have this like fixed income fund let's put a little bit of Bitcoin let's put 3% of that fund uh we'll put that in

Bitcoin so all my other fixed income like competitors or peers they're all returning 8% but me at 8% plus 3% of my Fund in Bitcoin I now return n and a half% I'm the better fixed income portfolio I go out and I pitch I outperform everyone look how smart I am you're buying a fixed income but really it's the Bitcoin doing the work to outperform the market versus uh the actual asset so I think we're starting to see some of that happening Fidelity is doing it black rocks talking about it Etc um the third thing that I think is

going to start to happen is you are going to start to see all the financial products being built in and around Bitcoin not necessarily because of the ETF explicitly but because now people are going to realize wait a second there is this asset that is now going to get swallowed into the the Legacy system and so uh there's an example of um there's a company called meanwhile uh they are building a Bitcoin life insurance policy and the entire business is based in Bermuda it's a regulated life insurance uh company just like you would see anywhere else um and I recently met

these guys and I was like man it's so smart the company is uh denominates everything in Bitcoin Revenue uh expenses uh their balance sheet assets liabilities uh the amount of the policy like everything is denominated in Bitcoin including when they give reports to people Etc everything's in Bitcoin so that's a good example of like okay well if I'm in the Life Insurance business in the traditional Financial world and somehow I can like again sprinkle Bitcoin in somewhere I could either Dive In The Deep End or I could just sprinkle

uh some of this in maybe I can sell more life insurance policies like that becomes a really interesting you know to use your guys words like a Lego that gets kind of put into this world and so you can go through every single part of the traditional Financial system and I think you're going to see people trying to do this and it's because what ends up occurring is there's this coales of all the products become the same right there's there's like uh uh lack of uniqueness in these Financial products so when you go byy the SNP what is the difference between one S&P you know fund

versus another maybe the fees are like five basis points difference but at the end of the day like you're just buying the S&P right sure maybe there some tracking difference or like for the average person they're's buying the S&P but if all of a sudden you can show up and say oh we give you S&P exposure and we outperform by 200 basis points Because by the way we sprinkled 3 to 5% of Bitcoin in here now you have a differentiator and so uh in the short to medium term the differentiator everyone will lean into over the long run everyone's going to sprinkle it everywhere and then it's going to all become not unique again and we're going