Bear Market War Stories with DCinvestor & Eric Conner

Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. This is how to get started, how to get better, and how to front run the opportunity. This is David Hoffman without my co-host Ron Shroud Adams, because he's away at the beach for a well-needed vacation. But either way, Bankless is here to help you become more bankless. And so, today we have on the show Eric Connor and DC Investor, and these are people that have been through multiple market cycles. They've got the battle scars to prove it, they've got the gray hairs of wisdom that we so desperately need during these highly chaotic and uncertain times in the crypto world. And so we go through some very simple but deep questions as to something I think we can all get behind, which are things like what lessons have we learned throughout the market cycles? What lessons did we learn through this market cycle? How has their personality and like investing strategy changed as a result? Like, what has the market cycles done to these humans as the markets chewed them around, yet they are still here and fighting and will always live another day, even though they've seen it all? And also, of course, we get into the conversation of macro. Is the merge more powerful than macro? And what are they thinking right now in this present moment in crypto? And of course, what are the patterns that we all see every single market cycle? What are the patterns that resemble of this current market cycle to past current market cycles and what we can expect going forward when this whole macro thing turns around? And of course, we finish off with some advice for newcomers as well. I hope you guys enjoy Eric's and DC's wisdom. They are people that I lean on during times of strife that I've had in my first market cycle, and they have helped me keep my head on my shoulders and just perpetually exude wisdom. So, Bankless Nation, I hope you enjoy this fantastic conversation with Eric Connor and DC Investor. Welcome, Bankless Nation, to the Cope Room. I've got two veterans, market cycle veterans, who have seen multiple cycles throughout their life, both inside of crypto and outside of crypto. You guys have heard them on Bankless before. We're joined by Eric Connor. He's been through the cycles. He first found out about Bitcoin while working at a bank and has been around in Ethereum since the pre sale itself and has stuck around throughout the cycles ever since then. Eric, welcome back to the show.

Thank you, sir.

And of course, you guys know and love him, DC Investor, the guy with the coolest NFT portfolio, at least is cooler than yours. He has also been through the market cycles, both inside of crypto and outside of crypto, and he's got the gray hairs to prove it. DC, once again, welcome back to the show.

Getting more gray hairs by the day. Thanks, David.

That's what we're here for.

Well, whether or not you guys got your gray hairs from the crypto markets itself, I think this is a time in the cycle where we could really learn from the people that have come before us. And so previously I have looked to you guys for just wisdom of because when we go through the market cycles, sometimes as newbies, we don't really know what to expect. And so we have to go and talk to the people who have been through the cycles before, just to make sure that we're not losing our minds, we're not going crazy, it's not going to zero. And other people have felt the emotions that we are currently feeling as first cyclers. Although I will say I'm a second cycler. And so, with that context for the show, my first question for you guys is how has being a multi cycle veteran like changed your disposition, changed your personality, your mentality? How have you changed as going through the manias and then the lows and then the manias again and then the lows again? Like, how have you like ridden out these waves and how has it changed you as a person? Eric, I'll start with you.

Yeah, you know what's funny is like I haven't even looked at the price of ETH in the last like 72 hours, to be honest. And I feel like that has once you know like a bear market's happening, you know the bull markets next. And like I remember looking back in like 2013 is the first time I got in like crypto, and then like we had this crazy top where everyone's buying like feather coin and lightcoin and all this stuff, and like Litecoin went from 50 to 2. Like people act like this is a new thing, it's not a new thing. And what's really interesting is like Bitcoin and ETH, so far at least, it could get worse, who knows, but like have less of a downswing. So, like, as just a Bitcoin and ETH investor my entire life, pretty much, as like you know, 98% of my portfolio. This is kind of nothing, and you just get used to it. And it's like, okay, here comes the bear market, everyone's gonna freak on Twitter, and now I just shitpost on Twitter and just like it's you know, and people get mad at me now. It's like, hey, think about the newbies. It's like, no, like I'm teaching the newbies through shitposting on Twitter. It's like, hey guys, you know, we've been here before, we go through cycles, and I kind of find solace in every cycle getting less and less bearish. Like, you know, I think Bitcoin's down 70% from the top, ETH hit like 75, something around those ranges. But we recently last cycle, right, hit 90%.

So I think, I mean, to answer your question and sum it all up for me personally, I just kind of like start tuning out charts and step away a little bit, take vacations with family, realize everything's gonna be okay, right? Everyone starts questioning their investment thesis, and I think that's the biggest mistake you can make, right? Like, I mean, we had the bull podcast probably what, 18 months ago or something on here, and like we were all pretty bullish, but I think the general consensus is like sell some on the way up, buy some on the way down, and know that crypto is not going anywhere, right? I mean, I think that's the most important thing you can kind of take from all these cycles.

DC, how have the uh market cycles impacted you and how has your personality been affected by the wisdom that you have gained throughout the cycles?

Well, let's start off first by talking about what a cycle means to begin with. And I think a lot of newer investors and market participants don't necessarily get the concept of a cycle. They don't necessarily want to accept the concept of cycles. But the reality is that human behavior and especially human greed kind of lends itself towards cyclical behavior. And this has been proven in lots of different markets, lots of different kinds of financial and non-financial behavior. But especially whenever you have any technology with real fundamental value that is significant, people tend to front run that value. And this is true of crypto. We've seen it in growth stocks and in other asset classes as well. Whenever there's an asset that has fundamental value, the market tends to pile into it. And that as they all pile in, more people want to get in because the number is going up. And it kind of creates this reflexivity that causes the number to go up. Often that number overshoots its target on the way up and also sometimes on the way down. And I think everyone needs to kind of understand that market behavior because you're a part of that game whenever you invest in any kind of fundamentally valuable technology. As far as how the cycles have changed me over time, I'll tell you what, when I got into Bitcoin in 2013, I bought the top of Bitcoin. I had been investing in the stock market for years, but I had heard about Bitcoin much earlier than 2013. But I was like, you know what? I gotta buy some of this because I saw it was going up, hit $1,000. I was like, this is really interesting. And I bought, I was like, I told myself I'm definitely gonna hold it no matter what. I'm gonna hold it long term. Well, I bought it for $1,000 in 2014. It started to go down, and then in 2015 it went down more. I decided I wanted to buy a condo in DC. So I ended up selling that Bitcoin for like between $300 and $500. And then I saw it go back up to tremendous heights later on. And that really taught me a lesson. It was like, you know what? I need to learn how this technology works and to understand what made it special, what made it accrue value in the first place. And I need to stay engaged the next time one of these cycles happens. And that means I'm not gonna sell my assets at the wrong time, I'm not gonna buy in for the wrong reasons, and I'm gonna position myself to survive across these cycles as they occur and manage my risks so I can continue to participate because that's the thing. You've got to be able to stay in the game, right? If you end up selling out at the bottom of a bear market, you're kind of done. I mean, you can always buy back in later, and I've seen people do that. We can talk about some of those stories, but it's just kind of like you have an opportunity to participate in one of these world changing technologies early. You've kind of got to stay committed and position yourself to be able to stay committed.

Speaking of having conviction in the assets that we buy, Eric, you named some very OG coins that I think a lot of new cyclers might not be familiar with, things like Feathercoin. And in the same era, there were things like PeerCoin and Namecoin, and just some ridiculous sounding coins, some ridiculous sounding names that in the world of 2022, we would be like Feathercoin, like whatever the hell feather coin is, it's not gonna be part of the future of finance. However, back in the era of 2013, I'm sure people were like the Feathercoin blockchain is gonna change everything. Namecoin, which is like a blockchain plus ENS, so very early like naming type system. I'm sure back then people were like, oh, this is gonna change the future. This is gonna change everything. And then that was a cycle. I'm sure there was a fallout and a crash and a hangover as a result of that. And while it is obvious nowadays that something like Feathercoin is not going to be the future of finance, I'll remind a lot of people out of the 2021 cycle that they probably bought a JPEG that they thought was gonna be the future. And so, Eric, can you talk about just like how the general sentiment always kind of falls into this trap of just like whatever is in the time of the market is the thing that is gonna change the future. And then like there's this inevitable like sobriety period. Can you talk about these phases?

Yeah, no, I think this is a really good topic because I think one of the things we saw in this cycle were

I guess I'll just name names, but like Avalanche, Solana, people are like, oh, this is like new. Like people are reinventing Ethereum. Like, this is what happens every cycle. Like Feathercoin, Litecoin were reinventions of Bitcoin in 2012-2013. Like Feathercoin pitched itself, I think, as like an upgraded, customizable Bitcoin. Litecoin always kind of pitched itself like Charlie, like, you know, basically exit scam at the top of like Litecoin, but like pitched it as like a faster Bitcoin, right? But we all know now, like, that's not, I mean, block size is important, and like that that was kind of a scammy pitch, right? But we kind of saw that this cycle with Solana and Avalanche, in my opinion, where it's like writing the coattails of Ethereum and saying, hey,

You know, we've got something better. We've seen this all before, right? So I think what's like really important these cycles is to keep your head on straight when it comes to this hype of

you know, I mean, Bitcoin, I give it shit, and like, you know, I think long term it's pretty doomed, but for now, I would still tell most people hey, buy ETH, like 80%, maybe buy like a little Bitcoin, just to like whatever, have some in your portfolio.

All these alts that like ride on the coattails, like I said, of Ethereum's the new one, right? Like, hey, we're a faster, better Ethereum.

It's unbelievable the hype and the funds jump in and Twitter's all about it. And like everyone, I'm still amazed. I've seen tweets in the last few days. No one thought Solana could have gone back to $20. Like, what I mean, this is one of the most obvious things ever to me that Solana was gonna crash 95%, right? It's just it's just unbelievable how people think this is new. But in reality, this happens every single cycle. And kind of a funny story, but I'm vacationing right now, and my wife and I were driving home. You know, we had a half-hour drive home earlier, and we were laughing about because we were talking about being on this podcast and stuff, and we were laughing about being the retail noobs in 2013. Like we were buying Litecoin and Feathercoin and stuff like at the top. Because at the time, like BTCC, which I don't even know if people remember this, there's some shady Russian like exchange. Like Litecoin had gone from 20 to 50 around like Thanksgiving of 2013, and we were buying like the top on all these things, and they crashed like 95% the next day. We're like, oh, this could be the next Bitcoin, blah blah blah. Like, this is not a new thing. So it's funny how not only do price cycles repeat, but narratives repeat, and people jumping behind what they think is smart money, but in reality is dumb big money. It's just all the same.

DC any comment on that before I ask my next question?

I mean, my point of view on it is a lot of people, and this is something I learned from my management consulting days, the concept of like a value proposition. And I'll define a value proposition as what is the unique value a product or blockchain offers the market that cannot be found anywhere else. And when you frame the question that way, there's not a lot of unique value in this space. There's a lot of follower value, there's a lot of duplicative value. Now, I won't be quite as harsh as Eric to say that, you know, I can't say with surety that these other chains are not providing any unique value, but I think it's an open question across the board in crypto to include Ethereum still, I mean, in some domains, where is that unique value? And I don't think many investors are asking themselves that question. As Eric said, a lot of people just follow whatever they think the smart money is doing. But guess what? The smart money is selling at the top and they're not coming back. I mean, we've seen this cycle a few times with some of these other coins. And unfortunately, there's a tendency where there are some VCs, or I'll use the term VCs in quotes here, because a lot of different firms are calling themselves VCs these days, but they will pump a coin one cycle and then they're gone the next. And they will act during that cycle like it's the most important thing. I can't point to any one token that that might happen to this cycle, but we saw it happen in the past with stuff like EOS, which was the first, they called themselves the first Ethereum killer. That's where the term came from. So I think that people need to be a lot more vigilant and think about where is that long term value? And it requires patience. It requires years of patience in many cases to establish that durable value. And most people just aren't that patient.

It's a good point. I think one thing to think about there too is

VCs totally quote unquote VCs missed out on ETH. They missed out on ETH in 2014 in the presale. They were sleeping on it. Most ETH buyers were actually like Bitcoin OGs. And they also missed out on buying the dip and pretty much put money into like Cosmos, EOS, and others before everything kind of took off in 18. And then, of course, they weren't buying ETH when it was number two market cap. I think that's a smart thing for people to understand and realize when they see these quote unquote VC influencers on Twitter. Like

ETH has to be one of the most missed out on assets of all time when it comes to big money.

Just to balance out the conversation a little bit more, I will say that the alt flavors of chains, the demand where, like as soon as a blockchain proves itself, it'll generate a bajillion alt flavors of that same blockchain. I saw that with Bitcoin and the proof of work fork and fair launch era, and we're seeing that a bunch with Ethereum. I will say as that progresses forward, we have seen a significant improvement in quality, even if it is like an alt flavor of the original chain, like the quality of the alternative flavor does get better and trend to be better over and over time. And while these dynamics of VCs forking something just to have an investable alternative will always probably stick around. At least I will say the quality of these forks do attract new use cases, new developers, new attention, at least during the bull markets. But I think since we are in a bear market, with the conversations here is well, what happens when everything contracts and how many people in that community and around that ecosystem is really going to be here for the long term? One question I have for you guys is what would you credit to the reason why you are still here? Is it something in your personality? Is it like a lesson that you learned early on? What is one of the reasons why, of all people, many, many people come into crypto and they get washed out, but you guys have come into crypto and you guys have stuck around? What quality or what do you credit through that reason why you guys are still here? And DC, I'll start with you this time.

I'll start first with crypto was not my first investing experience. And so, you know, I had invested in the stock market for years since I was in college. And I made mistakes in some of those stock cycles. You know, I mean, like I didn't really understand herd and market behavior as well. And I got caught up in like 3D printing and how that was going to change the world. And I bought some of the stocks, it went up a lot, and I watched it crash, and I eventually learned my lesson in terms of how those things work. But basically, investing in the stock market and other assets taught me to think very long term. And especially for a technology like crypto, I think also like my experience in growing up with the consumer internet, which I've now I've talked about on Banklist before. I actually recently published an article on my Substack about, you know, the early internet and what it was like to grow up during that period. And I kind of refer to this period that we live in today as the dial-up era of cryptocurrency, where there's a lot of harsh criticism. A lot of that criticism is also deserved. However, it would also be myopic to not believe that we are going to eventually progress past some of these teething challenges that we have today, just like we progressed past the challenges of dial-up internet. But in terms of other things that I credit for still being here, I mean, look, I stayed engaged through the bear markets. And I didn't do that in the 2013 bear market. I realized that was a huge mistake. Eric did, and Eric learned about Ethereum, got involved in the Ethereum pre-sale. If I had stayed involved, I probably would have followed a similar path, but I didn't do that. So there's a huge opportunity cost to just stepping out during a bear market and missing what's actually happening. And I think finally and most importantly, perhaps, is not over-leveraging at the wrong times. And when I say not over-leveraging, I mean that means borrowing money to invest in cryptocurrency, which I don't recommend for most participants at all. But it can also just mean like overinvesting in general. You have to have a position that you can hold. And if it's like your entire net worth and you have no other liquid assets, then you're not going to feel secure and you're going to be tempted to sell at the wrong times. I've seen people do it. I've done it myself. You don't want to be the guy that sells the bottom, it's painful.

Yeah.

Eric, same question to you. What about your experience, your history, or your disposition has allowed you to stick around throughout the cycles?

Yeah, it's funny. Like the first day I like invested in Ethereum or like even thought about its potential. I've said this so many times on podcasts, Twitter, whatever. People are probably tired of me saying it, but it's a multi-decade play. Like you're not gonna build the next financial system overnight, right? So I think one of the problems with cycles is people just get antsy. Like I get it. People want to get rich overnight. Like I totally get it. But in reality, most people that get rich, however, you want to define that, right? Like monetarily, personally, whatever, mentally, they stick to something for a while. Like not many people just become rich overnight. So I think that.

To me, I knew Ethereum had a huge uphill battle. Like when I first ran across it, it's because you know I had some friends that lost money in Mt. Gox and I saw a talk pitch it. And I'm like, hey, this could be a cool thing. Like people get control of the financial system. And this goes all the way back to I graduated college right as the financial crisis in 2008, 2009 was happening. And, you know, what's funny is I ended up going to work in finance, but at the same time, like you kind of saw like all these systems start to fail. And, you know, as you kind of grow up in that, you're looking for alternate solutions or alternate systems. And this idea just has fascinated me since then. And I knew that you aren't gonna like.

become a leader in an industry that's been around for 150, 200 years, like finance has or banks have overnight, right? Like you're up against governments, you're g up against regulators, you're up against currencies. Like this is just not gonna happen in two cycles. And I think that's one thing people lose track of, right? And

I really think though, like, why am I still around? I I I think this gets lost a lot in like DeFi and NFTs and stuff. I like the power

of the composability and the ability for anybody in the world at any point in time to not only use Ethereum, but to build on Ethereum and you know, plug their new code, their new Lego into DeFi or into NFTs.

And say, hey, look, I launched this. Maybe it fails. Maybe they exit pull. Maybe they rug, maybe they make a billion dollars. But you know what? Someone in

India or South America or Russia or I don't care where they are. Like the power in that is incredible. And I think we're used to these closed off systems where people are selling your data or you know, no one's allowed to plug in because this API holder is the one that connects your bank account to your Venmo or whatever. That's always been to me why I stick around. And I'm just never gonna lose that vision. And I don't think.

Ethereum and its community is ever gonna lose its vision. So I'm just gonna stick with it. I don't care if I'm 90 years old and we're at $100. I'm gonna say I'm still gonna be here.

Yeah, and I'll just add on to that, Eric, because I think you made some great points. But I think in particular that last point is really valuable for people to think about. The thing that I think that's made us both successful in crypto is that we've looked for those organic communities where people are building on these permissionless systems. And it can't be contrived. It has to be real builders and community members who want to come and participate in something. And it can't just 100% be motivated by money. There has to be a higher purpose. But when you see that, man, I mean go all in, frankly. I mean, because if it's real, it's going to grow and it's just going to compound on itself. And that's exactly what we've seen in the Ethereum ecosystem so far.

Yeah, I'll say like

that made me think I was gonna say this, but you just made me think about it. Is

like kind of the smartest people I know are just in this space. Like I've never not only the smartest, but the friendliest. It just I don't know, it's just a good vibe. It feels right. Like it's hard to just pass up on that and be like, oh, these people must be onto something wrong. Like, there's just no way that's possible.

Eric, you said something about like money Legos and permissionless building. And I think in 2017 as a community, we definitely tapped into that permissionless building thing. But that money Legos, the DeFi Legos part, we didn't really come up with that as an understanding until something like 2018 and 2019, when we had actual apps to plug into each other. Because in 2017, 2016, they were all siloed apps. And even Vitalik, actually, I remember him saying that he didn't really realize the power of composability in these things until it had actually happened. And so this is like a this is a bear market lesson, right? This is something that we learn after the mania of the 2017 ICO movement, where we realized that, like, no, it's not ICOs that are the new paradigm, it's composability between these applications that are the new paradigm. And like that's a lesson that I learned very, very quickly because I was the person that got burned by ICOs, right? That was my first cycle. That was my like bull market mania set uh lesson. I thought that ICOs and tokens were going to just solve human coordination. Uh, we're going to bootstrap this ecosystem by like leading with a token first and just like hype, hype, hype, mania, mania, mania. Super convicted on it because it was my first cycle. And like not only was it my first cycle, but it was also my first foray into like money and finance. Like, your boy came from social work. Like, I worked at a mental health agency. So, like coming into Ethereum in 2017 with like all these tokens, like I didn't really have any sort of like foundation to ground myself in. So, the question to you guys is was there like something that you had a ton of conviction on that you wholeheartedly believed that you lost a lot of money on? Like, did you have you guys ever had an experience like this? Eric, I'll start with you.

Yeah, I mean I I think I definitely resonate a bit. I mean, losing a lot of money, the only time I've really lost a lot of money in the crypto space is when I entered and I was like, oh, I'm gonna just leverage this thing. I know what I'm doing, and I just lost like I mean, I probably wouldn't even be doing this podcast. I'd be living on an island and I would have so much Bitcoin it wouldn't even matter, right? But I mean I was David, I love you, so I would still do the podcast. But I you know, I lost way too much Bitcoin on leverage, right? And because I was

At the time, yeah, I worked in finance, yeah, I had traded stocks in the past, but I didn't understand market cycles. Like uh people are like, oh, this is the best idea I've ever heard in my entire life. Like, I'm just gonna go all in. It can only go up, right? And

That just doesn't happen. So, you know, people need to understand that stuff goes up and down. You know, as far as like conviction that I had, I think it would resonate a bit with you with tokens early on. I think where tokens started to miss the boat. Let's take like the DeFi example. And yeah, I bought some DeFi tokens, probably lost a little money here and there, but they just said we're just gonna launch a token and assume it's like equity in the company. And that's just not right. I've actually been very disappointed in a lot of DeFi tokens and not giving a little bit more value to their token. Uniswap, I don't even know what's going on with Uniswap governance. It's uh they can barely get anything through and they haven't enabled fees back to token holders and all this stuff. I think.

You know, I had better hopes for that, I would say, as far as, you know, Ave, Uniswap, but I'm not like naming names in a bad way, but like these are great apps that are doing cool things, and we somehow can't like find a real way to give value back to token holders and appreciate the token a little bit. And I think Uni's gone from like a dollar to $50 back to three, which

I get it. Like, that's the market cycle. But at the same time, if you look at like the uni governance process, like not much is going on, right? So I think we can do a little better than

hey, we have a token and our app's really cool. So I think I've been a little disappointed to this point about that. Because to me, it's not that different than the 17 ICO phase. I mean, most of those went down 95%, and all these tokens have two. And maybe I've got a little burned on that hopium wise and investment wise. We can definitely do better. But I know DC has definitely views on this because I've seen tweets about it, and I know the whole community does. So yeah, I'm curious to see what he thinks.

Yeah, I mean, so to answer the question first, you know, my biggest losses have probably just been from being too greedy at the wrong times. So, you know, seeing a trend and then just kind of chasing in with even more money and then timing it wrong, and I lose money. So not too different from what Eric described, just being over-leveraged or overexposed at the wrong times. But in general, I try to get into assets that I believe in early before a lot of people like understand the value. At least that's what I try to do. And I tried to do that with you know Ethereum as early as I got in. I wasn't at pre-sale, but I came after that in late 2016, early 2017 with DeFi and with NFTs. But I think, you know, to speak to Eric's point about DeFi token design in particular, I also have been kind of disappointed because I think that a lot of these DeFi 1.0 protocols, as they're called, they're like stalwart protocols. I mean, they're still ticking. I mean, a lot of these DeFi 2.0 and these other like exotic algorithmically driven stable coins have just totally collapsed and blown it. But like Uniswap, Compound, Ave, they are just chugging along. They are working exactly as they're intended to. Maker is another one, but the tokens aren't necessarily reflecting that value. And I think that it is a wake-up call to governance of those protocols to say, hey, we have to think about how to return value back to our token holders, or we need to think about that feedback loop. At least Maker has one in theory through the token burning, but a lot of these really don't have that yet. So I'm not willing to count them out yet, but I do think the market price has reflected that reality. I also believe in some of these protocols for the long term. I think they have kind of changed the market. They have durable value. So I'm crossing my fingers that, you know, through, and some of these have already been through one cycle, like Ape. I'm hopeful that we're going to see some changes on the horizon as we move in through the spare cycle.

Do we think that it's a regulator fear? I mean, I know that like technically

we can vote on stuff and whatever, but there are still leaders, let's be honest. And like do we think it's regulator fear? I can't quite understand why this hasn't been improved.

I'll share some thoughts on that. I think that regulator fear is part of it and you don't want the central, they're not central, but you know, the people who lead the labs that have developed these products, if you will, they don't want to be seen as pushing some of these fee proposals through. That's number one. Number two, I do think that there's a fear that implementing fee income is going to lead to a competitor than stealing. I mean, most of the successful growth businesses in the stock market, even, have not shown a profit for years, sometimes decades. So I think there's some of that thinking that's at play here. I also think that the path for value creation to the token doesn't have to be through the existing product lines either. It could be creating new products. I mean, like, I just look at something like Uniswap, let's take that as an example. There's a ton of potential there. Like if they, I'm just saying hypothetically, if they developed a layer two exchange, which is as fast as a centralized exchange, that could lead to a ton more trading volume at lower fees. And the game for Uniswap, I think, is to continue to gain and grow its market share, which really, I mean, well, it started off as basically 100%, but it it did pretty well in terms of defending its market share. A lot of people are like Uniswap is dead and they've just kind of surprised the market. Now the question is how to activate that value in the token. I do think it can be figured out, but I do think there's a fear from a regulatory perspective.

I think this really, really illustrates the difference between this current cycle that we just went through and the cycles of old, the last cycle. Because from what I'm gathering from you guys, and I would totally agree, like, yo, Uniswap's not going anywhere. And the tokens that people held in 2017 and then held down to the bottom in 2018, like they went to zero and they stayed there. I mean, almost no token actually goes to zero. So when we say it goes to zero, it's more of a metaphor than anything. Like Omisei Go, for example, it was a token that was very, very popular, total consensus in 2017, and effectively has gone to zero. Substratum, that was a token that I helped, decentralized, I don't even know actually at this point, went to zero, right? And now we have tokens like Ave and Uniswap and other DeFi related tokens. And

No one thinks that they're going to zero. And the first cycler may be like, well, okay, yeah, we're just naive. It's just gonna happen again like last time. But the difference is like we're talking about market share. Like you guys just talked about how you know Uniswap didn't lose market share to a competitor. And we're talking about like what has failed us with being able to have value capture in the token. So when we talk about like things that are different this cycle, yo, this time it is actually different. Like the tokens do have fundamental quality. And my answer to this question, Eric, I know you didn't ask me, but I'll answer it, is definitely one part regulatory because the people that guide governance can't make that decision to Uniswap can't just turn on the fee switch. Like maybe the token holders are like, Hayden, when are you gonna turn on the fees? Hayden, please turn on the fees. And Hayden's not gonna turn on the fees because of exactly what you're talking about, which is regulatory. But underneath that, the bigger qualm, the bigger thing that I think is really holding back token value capture is coordination, is Dow coordination. And so, like DAOs right now are still learning how to do this, how to DAO. And so I think for learning lessons from previous cycles, most tokens, 99.9% of tokens in 2017 went to zero. And most DeFi tokens from the 2020 to 2021 era are not going to go to zero. And they're actually gonna figure out how to come back from the bear market by meaningful value capture. And it's probably actually going to be the bear market itself that triggers these DAOs to put the fire under their butt and actually figure out how to have this token capture value. Because guess what? A lot of salaries are paid from the value of this token. What do you think about that take? Eric, I'll start with you.

Yeah, no, I mean I definitely agree. I think kind of going back to your

Point about 2018 and stuff. I think what most people don't realize about like this bear market, which by the way, I'm not even like that. Yes, it's a bear market, but it's more a downturn. Like a bear market will be if we're having this conversation in 2023 and we've been sitting at uh you know 1100 for a while.

I'm not convinced that this thing isn't just gonna turn back up, which I know is funny to say on this podcast because I know I've been painted as the bear when I got 2500 at the top. But I think we could see accelerated cycles, and it loops back to your point of in 2018.

There was like nothing. I mean like crypto kiddies and crypto punks were out there on the NFT side and like Ave was called Lind. I don't even know if most people know this. It wasn't even called Ave. And yeah, Uniswap was just like kind of launching and there were a few DeFi apps, but

As far as like an Ethereum user, you were just kind of like stacking your ETH in your wall and you were not doing much, right? And at the same time, we were literally as a community, I mean, you all three of us were there, were debating how to fund the future of Ethereum because we thought the EF was going to go bankrupt and they were laying off employees, and we weren't sure like how Getha was going to get funded. So

I think, you know, if this is your first cycle, trust me, it's been way worse. Like the price at $1,100 and still billions of dollars flowing into this ecosystem, it's not a problem. I don't think you can really destroy Ethereum at this point. Like maybe you go down to like 10 bucks for 10 years. I don't even know. Like, I think it's

Basically, destroy proof or foolproof at this point. But yeah, I mean

there's so much out there, and I know I tweeted this like yesterday or something. Everyone in my feed is like, oh, we need to have a two year bear market. I think times are just gonna be different in these cycles. I think crypto has like a hyper

acceleration of greed and fear, which drive markets. And I think we saw a hyper acceleration on the way down. I don't know if this was funds blowing up or whatever, but it was a hyper acceleration of fear.