Capitol Hill War Stories from a DC Lobbyist Who’s Seen It All (SBF, Gensler, Elizabeth Warren)

TRANSCRIPT

David:
[0:02] I'm here with Ron Hammond. He is the head of policy and advocacy over at Wintermute. Ron, welcome to the show.

Ron:
[0:08] David, it's been a while. I hope everything's going well and looking forward getting to all of it, man. There's a lot to cover right now.

David:
[0:14] Yeah, there has been a growing history of crypto in DC. Maybe just for back context, 95% of our time together has been in just signal chat asking you about like, what does this mean? What's going on? What's the truth here when it comes to like me and Ryan trying to figure out what the hell is going on in Capitol Hill? Because there's the version of Capitol Hill, crypto in Capitol Hill that they want you to see. And then there's the version that's like kind of going on under the hood. And those two things don't really line up. Maybe to set the table, just how long have you been in DC?

Ron:
[0:53] So it's been 10 years. and actually for this new job. It feels like all of them. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, like since crypto policy was a thing, like it's been like me and like three other people who have been on the staff side of all this stuff. And like, for example, he's on Capitol Hill when I worked there. So I started working there in 2015, left in 2019 to go work at Ripple and cover that later on. But I worked for Warren Davidson from Ohio and he was a freshman member and everyone's, it's kind of like high school. Everyone's trying to find their own certain lane in policy. And he was trying to do more venture capital issues. But then he had a whole conversation with the leadership a couple hours. And I'm like 24 at the time. But apparently like, it's like, hey, you're a freshman. You're kind of getting the bomb, rung in the issues. Just do crypto or something. And he really took that to heart. He went over to me and said, hey, Ron, like, do you know anything about crypto?

Ron:
[1:39] I'm like, well, you know, I may or may not have bought an Epic ID on the Silk Road in college, but like that's pretty much all I know about crypto. And he goes, congratulations. You're the guy that is now in charge of crypto policy. So like, that's like how it happened. Me at 24, like getting like dumped that on my desk. But at the same time, I was like, it's kind of cool because it's like the most brand new territory. Like there's no like left versus right. There's no like policy lines. There's no like policy in general. So, so like that's kind of how I got in this space. I worked with a couple of Democrats and Republicans on the token taxonomy act, which was like the first crypto regulatory market structure bill. You know, back then it was like what about 20 pages or so. And the clarity act is like 309 pages or whatever. But like the kind of the early stage of clarity act that we're going to talk about probably pretty soon, that was a token taxonomy act and several other bills down the road. But like that's what i worked on it was the first bipartisan bill on market structure uh which is i was really adamant about like making sure we had to keep this bipartisan because of the first of its kind and then after that decided to go over to in-house so i can give it more in depth kind of like you know everything where i've ended up at including the blockchain association now but it's been a fun ride man i've been kind of seeing it from all angles here it's been exciting yeah.

David:
[2:43] I suppose it parallels the growth of crypto as a whole like if you're if you are early crypto in Capitol Hill, you're kind of like doing the rebel thing. You're the counterculture young participant. You're just in DC and somebody needs a crypto guy and you're the crypto guy. And now here we are in 2026. I'm sure it's just wildly different. What's it like now?

Ron:
[3:05] My favorite story is my friends in Capitol Hill, they call me Captain Crypto because I went to Congress of Crypto and all we did was crypto. So when Janet Yellen would come in, you know, talk about, you know, what's happening with the markets, like we're going to be asking about crypto and everyone just kind of eye rolled at us at a time. But then there's that famous time where these two kids, and I remember being on the side of the hearing room when it happened, these two kids brought up the Buy Bitcoin sign in front of Janet Yellen.

David:
[3:27] Oh yeah, what's his name?

David:
[3:29] Christian is his name?

Ron:
[3:30] I never met the guy.

David:
[3:31] I met him a couple of times. Yeah.

Ron:
[3:33] It's crazy. So I was there and all my friends who are working with all these like congressmen, like they usually hang out on the side of the room of the hearings. They all just beelined right at me. And like, these are your people, aren't they, Rob? I'm like, these are not my people. He's not my guy. So yeah, I'm seeing like from back in the day when like no one was doing this stuff. You know, I was there during the SPF days too. Like, holy crap, that's another different story that you and I kind of talked about a lot as well. And then, yeah, now it's more on the kind of market side. And now I'm in New York as well and D.C. going back and forth. And I had a Miami Stade in between too. So, like, it's kind of seen the different phases of crypto.

David:
[4:07] How would you describe this phase now versus, is this like peak crypto activity in D.C.? Was it more active maybe, I don't know, post-SBF? Like, what's the vibe now? And, like, how would you kind of, like, name the flavor of whatever's going on in Capitol Hill with crypto?

Ron:
[4:27] So we were, no one gave a crap about us at all for like years. Again, like everyone would just crap on me all the time when I was like, but 2020, when the COVID happened, 2021, that's when I started getting the calls being like, hey, Captain Crypto, would love to talk to you about this crypto thing. What the hell is it? And like, that's kind of where my role came in, just being like, and everyone calls lobbyists kind of like a dirty term. But like, my job is more is like, let me explain why XRP and Bitcoin are two different things. It's like, that was kind of the conversations back then.

David:
[4:52] And your job was to just explain things to regulators who were too old to get it themselves.

Ron:
[4:58] Exactly. And usually they would kick it over to the staffers, too, which is a unique area of crypto. Since there's no like lines drawn stuff, they would just kick it over to the 25, 28 year old staffer and say, you handle this. So the cool thing is, like, you're kind of like working with staffers who have a lot of power. But at the same time, like, you have to really know this stuff. And they're a lot more tech savvy than the 80 year old center. So there's pros and cons. But like staff have a lot more leeway and a lot more power, candidly, than most issues, I would say. is because of like the boundary lines just aren't there yet. So since doing that, I would say the vibe right now is, not as hype as it was when SPF was throwing money in DC and saying like, Hey, we're going to have reception and Shaquille O'Neal is going to be there and Tom Brady is going to be there. And everyone's like, I don't know what FTX is, but I'm in like, that sounds awesome. Cause DC is a, it's just like that. It's a kind of a gossipy high school town. But at the same time, there's actually now like, Oh, like this is serious. They're big boys. Now 2024, the election cycle, it changed everything. I mean, in terms of just people like, Oh wait, these guys actually have a lot of power here. And the fact that we've taken, we've gone up against the banks. We've gone with the casinos. We've gone against some pretty entrenched incumbents and we've beaten them every time. It's kind of like crazy. Like people in DC are flabbergasted. And again, it's not just like throwing money at packs. Like it's a lot of education, like the right people, foot traffic, media like you guys as well. I mean, we'll probably talk about this later on, but the amount of times like the Bankless podcast has come up and like, you know, party conversation in DC is kind of crazy, but it's happened several times. So it's a weird world, but vibes are high. We'll see what happens with Claire Yakko.

David:
[6:26] It's been a take that I've had that crypto lawyers are kind of just like... A different breed of lawyers they're just so hardcore and savage just like in the best ways competent people have it's been my take it was like crypto lawyers are just generally just a bar above the rest and i think maybe that extends itself to dc like you said like it's not just throwing money around like is the crypto lobby uniquely competent for its like how does it punch above or below its weight class

Ron:
[6:56] Versus others yeah i mean i guess a good example is so when you're a Hill staffer, so if you're going to take me at 25 years old, I would cover financial services, healthcare, tax, and trade. So all day you're doing these meetings. And these are tough meetings on tough issue areas. And the fact that you're supposed to attain all this knowledge after the fact when you're doing so many different meetings throughout the day, it's tough. So it's a lot of repetition and it's a lot of meeting these people. If you're going to go into the weeds with someone on crypto for the first time ever and you bring up DeFi, good luck. That's going to be so difficult for them to grasp in a 30-minute conversation. So it's a lot of repetition. It's a lot like, you know, just candidly having the conversations with the staffers. But I'd say the banks, what they do is they bring a lot of these, you know, the old school vibes too. So they would bring like suit and ties to every single meeting. It's really stuffy. They want the congressman always there. And they really feel like they have to like talk to the congressman. And especially the staffer, it's kind of like, hey, like we don't care about you. We're talking to the congressman. We're talking about community banks. And it's the same issue they've been hearing for the past 50 years or credit cards or whatever. Pick an issue.

Ron:
[7:51] Whereas crypto, it's so new. And it's kind of like, hey, this is a very unique space. A, there could be a lane for you to make a name for yourself or kind of find your niche within this area, like self-custody or DeFi or DAOs, pick a lane. This is all brand new territory, which is cool for people in politics because this is like, oh, I can actually work on something that has substance and is the first of its kind and it's real. So I think that's the more intriguing value of it as well. And then lastly, I would say, it's kind of laser for crypto we're different so like we would do like we wouldn't do like the stuffy receptions at like you know some like you know stuffy hotel or you know club nearby the the capital it'd be like oh let's just go watch like diplo or whatever and like miami like conference like side events and like for dc people it's so rare like when they go to consensus or they go to permissionless like they always are flabbergasted being like oh like this is like there's a lot of people it's a real industry and like they're young and exciting and like i like this like energy whereas the banks are just stuffy Palm Beach all that stuff and it's like yeah we don't want that so I think it's kind of like different versions of the banks yeah, interesting so yeah.

David:
[8:57] Why was SBF able to penetrate politics so well? And so far from what you've been saying, there's a lot of vibes of just like, if you can do well in the high school cafeteria, you can do well in Capitol Hill. If you have those, it's the same skillset of just like, can you navigate a social situation? But why was SBF able to do so well in 2021 and 2022 in DC?

David:
[9:19] Because like, I don't know, I don't think SBF would have seemed that cool.

Ron:
[9:22] No, exactly. So back in like 2021 DC, It was probably about, I'd say, a dozen or so lobbyists. You know, when I first worked on the issue in 2017, it was like five, like three. So it was so small. Like there's a blockchain association, Digital Chamber of Commerce, Coinbase, and a few others. A6 and C as well. But when SPF came in, he brought a crap ton of money with him, which like he would throw at all these bomb side events. Again, like we didn't have the money to throw around for these cool receptions or cool DC events or cool educational briefings. And the difference, too, is that Sam also came off of that perception at the time was the altruistic perspective. That really resonated with a lot of Democrats and candidly with a lot of Republicans too, because you're like, well, how could this guy who's five foot four, you know, possibly harm anyone? Yeah, he's come from good parents or, you know, they had a good narrative spin up and narratives in DC drive everything, candidly. And so when we saw that, it was at first like, okay, you know, FTX, new player in town, that's fine. You know, oh, they want to take the entire like spotlight. That's nothing new. It happens in crypto all the time. But it's when they started lobbying on stuff, that's when we're like red flags all around. And they were pushing for some CFTC exemption authority that pretty much would have screwed over DeFi. They would provide centralized exchange regulation for DeFi. And you guys come to this super well. But when that conversation was happening about two, three years ago behind the scenes, it was groups like Coinbase and other centralized exchanges who said like, hey, like we would benefit from this, but we're going to stay in the DeFi camp because like what's good for all of us is good for all of us. And that's how we should do it. Not what's good for one part of the sector.

Ron:
[10:47] And like SBF snapped, which like at that moment, he yelled at my boss for the blockchain association at the time, started like, you know, really throwing out some darts on Twitter. And you could tell us at the time, we didn't know, you know, what was happening with FTX behind the scenes. But like you could tell us there was a stressful situation here. But it was more of a...

David:
[11:03] Right. There was like, no one really knew why he snapped. But in order to explain that, you could assume that like there is a looming shadow behind SBF that's really motivating him.

Ron:
[11:12] Exactly. And at the same time, like it was more also that one decision where like, I was giving Coinbase a lot of credit here. But it's like there was a time where there's an opportunity maybe to try to put their weight behind a bill that would have benefited them, but not benefit DeFi. And them, as well as many other folks, including pretty much everyone said like, no, we actually believe DeFi is important here. And we shouldn't apply these regulations that would actually not make it, you know, at all possible in the United States. We should not make that be a thing. So like, this is where we saw the FTX whole scandal blew up, but it was, it was the altruistic narrative as well as just coming off as like this really innocent type of kind of person, because how would he defraud millions of people? He would never do that.

David:
[11:48] Okay, so, like, after the tide ran out and SPF and FTX and everything they touched was shown to be, like, swimming without swim trunks, like, how embarrassing was that for the people who, like, got into Sam's circles? Like, what was the cleanup in D.C. like?

Ron:
[12:04] Oh, dude, it was so bad. I meant the old podcast because, like, there was, like, it was, like, the week before it blew up. It was, like, Eric Voorhees on your podcast as well as SPF. And I remember like, we were playing beer pong with a bunch of Hillstaffers because we're all just having a good time at someone's birthday party. And it came up and we were just talking about how SBF was full of crap. And we were hearing everyone else is around the table as protective, but that's how D.C. is. It's a small place. It was kind of fun having your podcast directly involve those conversations because everyone's view of SBF at that time before it all came out was starting to sour. So after that, when it happened, the problem is that everyone took the money. So, you know, Democrats, Republicans, they all took the money. You know, both sides try to claim that, you know, oh, the Democrats took more money. Republicans took more money. But at the end of the day, SPF was just trying to pass this bill to benefit him and try to get some barrier, at least from the ACFTC. And he failed. So it was really bad because every single thing was tied to us as an industry. Whether you're a Coinbase, you're wearing a mute, whoever, and you're going in to meet with Democrats or Republicans. It's like, hey, I don't want to be seen near you guys because it's all the corruption narrative and angles and stuff. And the worst thing I think people will realize is a lot of people who took SPF money, they spent it I mean because like it's campaigns they had it spent in the middle of the season so what they had to do is they had to fundraise more money from other donors you know whether from their constituents or elsewhere to pay off or pay back the FTX creditors so everyone.

David:
[13:24] Pay it back

David:
[13:26] I need a check.

Ron:
[13:27] I believe most did, but like that's paid back. You imagine the most like till between your legs and you're trying to raise money from your constituents and your local community, knowing that it's not going to your race or their cause. It's going to pay back like the FTX creditors. Like that's a.

David:
[13:37] Horrible- And they wouldn't say that out loud. They were, that was just like kind of what was happening behind the scenes.

Ron:
[13:41] Yeah. And that's again, that's both sides of the aisle. Both sides took money. Yeah. And like, it just like forever stained it. But like, you know, credit fair shake and all these other groups that really stepped up in 2024 because they didn't let that deter them. And that like, Like we had material effects on the 2024 election that's now scaring a lot of people right now in 2026. So it's crazy to watch. Like, yeah, FTX and SPF especially destroy things. And again, last thing I'll say, SPF was on the Hill all the time. I would see him on Capitol Hill in the hallway almost on a daily basis, receptions and events. Like he, more than any CEO in crypto I've ever seen, he was in DC more than anyone else.

David:
[14:14] Why do you think he was there? Was somebody over his shoulder telling him, like, Sam, you need to go to DC? Or was he like self-motivated for the identity to get over the opportunity?

Ron:
[14:23] He knew he needed to be in D.C. Again, whether it be more existential crisis with his company or more just because he felt like that was kind of like the right time or place. It's unclear in my opinion, but like they hire a D.C. Team after they decided to be in D.C. It's like SPF was there and he started hiring people after that. So I'd say it was his push.

David:
[14:41] Okay.

David:
[14:41] So after the whole FTX, SBF thing was the rise of Elizabeth Warren and her anti-crypto army. Yeah. What was that like? Because Elizabeth Warren, you can kind of see the pattern of just like, well, she did the same thing to the banks. And so now she's just kind of carrying that same pattern forward of like cudgel them until they bend the knee and then pay the Democrats a bunch of money, protection money, right? Like it's a racket. But then there was a bunch of other things that happened like around Elizabeth Warren. There was the Joe Kent versus Pool Together proxy battle. And Joe Kent was this like ex-Warren staffer who went after Pool Together, the most beloved, innocent DeFi protocol on like this frivolous lawsuit. There was like this, the Mark Cohides letter. And that was with the Silicon Valley Bank thing. There's just like a bunch of proxies around Warren. And I've never really gotten to the bottom of that. It was just like, obviously, Warren was explicitly anti-crypto. She said so. But then there were a bunch of like loosely affiliated, but not directly related proxies around Warren. And that's the more interesting thing. What happened there?

Ron:
[15:50] I mean, like this, I guess we're doing the whole DC tell-all situation. But like, this is a good example. And I'll tie it back, you know, to the things you just mentioned earlier, like to the Clarity Act that just happened now. We had like a bunch of housing groups, the AFL-CIO, and a bunch of like others, random progressive groups come out against the bill, even though in the most part, if not all the times, like they're not touched by it. And you kind of realize like well, who's pulling the strings? Like, is this more of a progressive thing trying to get the Democrat-leaning groups to push their cause? But like or is it the banks? Like, is it Wells Fargo and these groups that have been lobbying publicly against stablecoin yield? Are they going through the housing groups because they had to make up for their past sins in years prior? And they're telling them, hey, we need you guys to come out against the crypto regulation bill because that's our beneficiary. You know, I've seen, The American Gaming Association has been going through the Mormon church to go against prediction markets. Like there's all, you mentioned proxies, but like this is like, I mean, crypto is the same thing. Don't get it wrong. But like the good thing about crypto Twitter and about kind of just Twitter generally is like, it's a lot easier when the information is out there to dissect of like who's sponsoring who and who's coming behind the scenes here, who. Because sometimes like, you know, 10 years ago, the Democrats wouldn't take a single meeting with the banks. And now like, it's kind of weird to see how a lot of Democrats join the banks on these arguments. But like, that's where they had to go through proxy groups and stuff like that. Even FTX after that happened I'd say half Democrats offices would bar any crypto meetings and so you had to go in through like other groups to have like just even one educational conversation with a staffer because they refused to meet with crypto so like this is how this works. So you're saying this.

David:
[17:17] Is actually just normal this is actually just how the game works

Ron:
[17:20] It's sort of like sort of but like take things like Mark Hoda's letter he mentioned that so Silvergate so he was a short seller.

David:
[17:26] Can we go and do the

Ron:
[17:27] Backstory on that? Yeah we deal with this I guess we're going to source back in the day so like, This happens a lot on Capitol Hill. I mentioned you're a staffer. You get so much information. You're doing so much work on different policy issues all day, nonstop. And so with some groups, they do sometimes like, hey, we pre-wrote a letter for you on this really important issue that your center or boss cares about. All you got to do is make a couple tweaks and get your colleagues on board or send it to whoever. It'll come from Senator Warren. It'll come from whatever representative. But that happens a lot in DC.

David:
[17:58] So external parties prep some comms and messaging and they deliver to the staffers saying, this is what your congressman believes. Here are some comms that might interest them.

Ron:
[18:11] Yeah, and again, sometimes these things are really legitimate. Like, hey, there's fraud at this potential company or there's something happening that's really sus. Other times it's like, hey, my competition's doing this. I don't like this. Please do this nasty letter to scare everyone. Because I remember months ago, years ago, we were talking about when Elizabeth Warren would do a letter, everyone's freaking out. And then now it's kind of just a nasty gram. You're just like, okay, whatever. Like, it's fine. It doesn't mean anything. So it's a lot of that. So like Mark Cotas is for this one example for Silicon Valley Bank was a short seller. And I'm sure there's plenty of others doing this too, but like he was shopping his letter around. I said it to you guys because I got from my sources as well. But, and she led the letter like word for word from the short seller on Silicon Valley Bank. And then what, like two weeks ago or afterwards, it like goes under. And of course this guy has been, you know, you look at his Twitter, he was mad crapping SBB for months so I'm sure he made a pretty penny on it was there actual concerns I'll leave it to the lawyers to decide but like, For me personally, it was more like, this is crap. This is just like, how is Elizabeth Warren doing the bidding of this one short seller who's going to make a crap ton of money on this thing? And to the benefit of who? Who is the broader constituency that benefits? I can tell you, it's not a lot of people. It's just a very few.

David:
[19:20] So this market guy had a short position on Silicon Valley Bank.

Ron:
[19:25] Allegedly.

David:
[19:26] Allegedly. And goes into the Warren office with some comms, a drafted letter. And then we heard those comms from Elizabeth Warren, like not allegedly, like we did hear that. Like she read out the letter, as you said, word for word, like damming Silicon Valley, Silvergate, like all of those. And then anyone who had a hypothetical short position probably did very, very well. Do we know if like the Warren office was like pissed in hindsight or was this like, I mean, what do we know about like how was this manipulation or like, What do we know about that?

Ron:
[20:03] That's a question, man. I leave it to lawyers on a lot of stuff because again, this stuff happens all the time.

David:
[20:08] This happens all the time?

Ron:
[20:09] Yeah, well, again, it depends the issue. Again, those are sometimes a real issue. Sometimes it's just like someone trying to spin a narrative to benefit themselves. But this is where Twitter comes into play here. The transparency of information is so much better because as a Hill staffer at the time, it's just the people who would come in and meet with me every 30-minute slot. And if they were able to create a scenario being like, hey, there's really bad things happening. We wrote a letter to go after said bad thing. Please like you know help our cause out or also we live in your district or whatever or state like that's usually like you know oh I want to help this like situation out but yeah and like this.

David:
[20:39] Is the job of the representative to represent their constituents and like hey like some of my constituents are under threat, being bullied, need assistance, and I'm their representative. That's why they elected me. And so like, let me come to their aid. I'm their hero. I'm trying to be their hero. So that's the carrot to do it in the first place. But that can just be manipulated, it sounds like.

Ron:
[21:01] Or some people could try to dress it up as a wrong situation or something to benefit them shortly. And again, like if you're someone who doesn't have access to information like as transparently, you're going to probably even believe them or like, you know, do a little more research. But like at least now it's so different where it's like now you go on Twitter and it's like, who's like Marco Hodes? It's like, oh, this guy's a short seller. Oh, this guy's probably gonna make a lot of money on this stuff. Hey, this is probably a red flag here of like, this guy's definitely pushing me on this or lobbying me on this issue for his personal benefit and not for the benefit of like, oh, there's actual concern here. So again, like just highlighting, this happens all the time. Like we saw like ICE and CME had a letter on Hyperliquid two weeks ago and they were saying to the CFTC and the head of the agriculture committees, Hyperliquid could be involved, could be involved in like a sanctions violation and money laundering. again they didn't have any evidence but like they're just trying to throw it out there right and like they.

David:
[21:48] Like hood they could hypothetically be involved with that

Ron:
[21:51] And that's how dc works it's all it's.

David:
[21:52] All you have to say

Ron:
[21:53] Yeah and you at least you know in some administrations have you seen that's how it kicks off the investigation process and the investigation process could lead to a story about investigation and that's just enough to short the price or whatever and like that's that's you know at least the upside again is the transparency with information flow now is so much better than it was when i was working on the hill 10 years ago five years ago so like, It's better a lot now, but like you really have to do your research. Otherwise, like people are trying to manipulate the system for that stuff.

David:
[22:18] Yeah, there seems to be just a huge gap between just like high context and low context people. And especially with crypto, because crypto is so confusing, that if you are a low context crypto person, you could be told anything from somebody with high context who's also manipulative. And the optionality there seems very rich.

Ron:
[22:39] Exactly. And again, these aren't even coming from the direct competition. These come from proxies usually. have the time. And again, like AI is going through this right now. Like the anthropic battle is fun to watch, but like they're going through all proxies to hit the other person. Cal Street Polymarket hitting each other too.

David:
[22:52] Oh no, I bet that, I bet that one is so like much gnashing teeth.

Ron:
[22:57] But the last thing I'll end on though is like crypto really grew up recently because like for years you couldn't get crypto to agree on anything, you know, just like with different sectors or CEOs. But like we are now at the point, at least in DC, where it's like we have bigger threats facing us and they are pushing any crap they can narrative wise to try to stop the Clarity Act or tried to get their way with certain provisions. And like DeFi, you know, central exchanges and market makers, token projects, like everyone across the board is like, yeah, we are all in this together. So like, let's buckle up. Let's, you know, go behind the trades or rally behind certain causes and let's make sure these red lines are there. Because like, yeah, we're at crunch time right now. And all these other folks are just like trying to nitpick one at the other. But for crypto and the lobbying stage right now, we are at the big time, center stage.

David:
[23:38] How powerful is the crypto lobby right now?

Ron:
[23:41] I, it's pretty powerful. I mean, when I started, again, I guess at 2016, 2017, three or four lobbyists, maybe. Right. And now I think it's probably 200, probably. And it's still a lot smaller than the banks have, but like we've beaten the banks at their own game several times and like we're winning. So like it's.

David:
[23:58] Kind of- And a part of that is just because we're newer, younger, more adaptable, more flexible to new strategies on DC and Capitol Hill.

Ron:
[24:05] Not necessarily because like, you got to think the banks have had relationships with these guys for like a decade, centuries in some cases. And then they can also say like, hey, that mom and top bank, let's keep your town alive in rural Nebraska. If yield goes through, that small town Nebraska won't have any lending whatsoever because that bank's going to go away, which is complete BS. Yeah, that doesn't sound right. That doesn't pass the sell test. So like we've been them at their own game. And like we also, I think COVID changed a lot with lobbying now, you know, the world going a lot more remote, but it's also more just like, hey, like I'm going to tell you my, at least how I do it. It's like, here's my information. I'll tell you, I know I'm biased. Like here's where I believe is the non-biased view. And you can fact check me. You can go on Twitter, you can go research it, go in professional research service. You can fact check me and compare it to anyone else. But at least I'm going to tell you the information. And you'll see that we're not looking for a carve out. We're not looking for a special circumstance here. We're just looking for regulation. And this product, it's getting regulated. It's very different than the 1930s called for. So they're like, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, that's how it should work. So that's kind of how these conversations go.

Ron:
[25:04] And, you know, it's a lot of fear-mongering, but I think it's getting better. But, like, the bank lobby right now, the last thing I'll say is, too, is, like, Jamie Dimon, we just crapped on the Clarity Act this weekend. Like, he pivoted from, like, the banks have now pivoted from the yield issue because they know they've lost that issue, and they know from the drafters who made that amendment, they said, this is done. Like, hey, this is the yield amendment. It ain't going to move anywhere. So the banks realized they're not going to get 60 votes in the amendment to change it. So now Jamie Dimon and all these other CEOs are saying, oh, there's an AML issue. Even though there's, like, 70 pages worth of AML stuff in there, they're now saying the narrative is there's no AML or no BSA or make sure you have requirements don't know your customer so we like kill the bill entirely so that's the new strategy and it's like, and anyone in DC now knows like on through like social media and good news reporting it's like hey like that's crap we just know y'all pivoted from yield to this because you want to kill the bill because you didn't get what you wanted so it's this is.

David:
[25:54] Just one big game of chess

Ron:
[25:55] It is.

David:
[25:56] Which probably makes it pretty fun

Ron:
[25:58] It's never boring yeah.

David:
[26:00] Well so who is playing on the crypto side So we have Coinbase, we have Ripple. You're there representing Wintermute. Who are the players that constitute the crypto side of the board?

Ron:
[26:12] Yeah, I would say it's, I mean, most companies have presence in DC one way or another. I would highly recommend to companies, like if you're large enough to hire someone in-house to watch your priorities, like this is definitely a good space to be in. Obviously, AI is not taking those jobs away anytime soon. And the information flow is great. And also like I mentioned Twitter a lot as being an important tool. But guess what? like people are not taking bill text edits from Twitter. Like that's just not the reality. They're going to lawyers, they're going to people in DC, the people they trust. So it's Coinbase, ACCZ, Ripple, Blockchain Association on the trade association side, Digital Chamber. I mean, Fireblock's got a good team or it has a team. Hyperliquid has a full team now recently. Solana Policy Institute, same side. Hedera. I mean, it gets pretty much like if you think of most major crypto companies, they've kind of now got the memo, like if you're not on the, you know, places in DC, you're going to be on the menu of DC pretty soon.

David:
[27:00] Who's representing Ethereum?

David:
[27:02] They got ConsenSys over there.

Ron:
[27:03] So they got actually a pretty good team. Bill Hughes is great over there. And they also have a bunch of the other projects that they've sponsored. They have representatives in DC as well. So the decentralized foundation as well has been great. So there's a lot of other trade associations or individual groups benefiting Ethereum as well. But they're definitely hard. I met with Ethereum back in 2017 on this stuff and they were hugely helpful for the drafting of the bill.

David:
[27:26] Okay. The L1s aren't going after each other anymore, right?

Ron:
[27:29] That's just like a bygone era. That's a good thing in DC. it's weird. Like we're all enemies, like we're competitors in the marketplace, but in DC, we are all friends. Like there's an L1 group and it's all the L1 lobbyists from all across spectrum are all coordinating. I'm like, hey, what's good for us is good for us entirely and we'll compete about it outside DC. So it's only when someone comes into DC and is like, I want to carve out my business or make my thing the best thing, which that's what Sam did. And when he did that, everyone's like, yeah, screw you, dude. Like everyone's just serious.

David:
[27:56] And I suppose the more tight knit the crypto side is, the more, the stronger the stick is for anyone to defect where if you go off and do your own thing you have the rest of the crypto lobby who you just pissed off and the more unified the body of the crypto lobby is like the less incentive there is to defect.

Ron:
[28:17] Yeah. Is that how it works? Yeah. It's like again like you gotta get credit to like Blockchain Association Crypto Council for Innovation like Coin Center too DeFi Education Fund and can only Coinbase too like you know Coinbase could be the big dog you know at some stages Coinbase could have been like hey we do anything we want maybe you say otherwise screw you but no they've been like A been there since day one but B they've also been like really rallying the cause and also like sticking up for things like DeFi that may not directly impact them or benefit them but like at the same time like benefit everyone else and also you know rising tides lift all ships here and.

David:
[28:48] Yeah, we have bigger forces of face here,

Ron:
[28:50] And we're winning.

David:
[28:51] I suppose there are questions that I can ask you, but you can't really answer, which is like, who on the crypto side in D.C. really sucks? Like, who really grinds your gears? Who's annoying? But I suppose you don't want to answer that, because why would you?

Ron:
[29:05] I'd say this, like, you know, I was at a trade association, a blockchain association for five years, and there was always groups where it's like, you know, four to five groups can agree with it, but one person said no. And, you know, I'm not going to say any names, but like you probably would know who they are through crypto twitter because they're always contrarian to everything and so like you know and then when word kind of got out they're always contrarian they're always different then their kind of view gets a little minimalized because everyone knows they're kind of always contrarian so like it's and usually it's for the for the good of the industry though so like they always they do usually have good points but i'd say the the adults have entered the room recently like this past like two years and everyone knows like hey like we are all like on the target here so like we gotta unite here that's what the banks doing like the banks don't all agree on the yield issue but they're all united because they understand they have because that's how.

David:
[29:49] The game works that's the the the equilibrium for the strategy i see

Ron:
[29:53] Exactly so.

David:
[29:55] The democrats lost lost election potentially it could be argued like i don't really care what the what the answer is but like could be argued because of the crypto issue and because of our success in dc the democrats lost to what degree has that changed the ways of the democrats moving forward like did the have democrats realized that going up against crypto is like a losing battle or are they kind of just like licking their wounds and they'll be back when they have a little bit more momentum? Like what's the, what do you think the Democrat relationship to crypto will

David:
[30:25] be in the 2028 election, for example?

Ron:
[30:27] I mean, the new Democrat, it's mostly generational and new Democrat side and Democrats have had this kind of weird issue where, I mean, we're seeing this play of the Biden regime where it's like that old guard just didn't want to retire, didn't have term limits or whatever. So like the old guard, That is the old way the world from multitude of fronts, including crypto, is usually against crypto. And at least in Democrat circles, you're allowed to be the committee chair as long as you want. Like the Republicans have a rule, it's six years. So after six years, if you're top of the chair, you're out, new person. It doesn't matter if you're a minority or majority. Democrats, you can be in those seats for life. And again, those seats of committee chairs, they decide what bills get votes on, what bills don't get votes. So for us, we know for a fact, that's why we're saying like Democrats, if they win, it'd be Elizabeth Warren and Maxine Waters. Which kind of stinks because like Maxine Waters actually like I met with her, and Jesse Jackson it was weird it was weird it was 2019 it was the day we introduced the token taxonomy after the second time and Maxine Waters invited me and Warren Davidson to talk to her about the crypto regulatory bill and for two hours we talked to her and the civil rights leader for some reason he was there up till midnight about crypto regulation and she actually really had a really good conversation and like was really engaged she got close to SPF like really learned about the issue got close to Jeremy Allaire and a few other companies and then after After SBF, now this whole saga happened, it was very much supplanted like, okay, now she's like against because she just got, you know, she got burned.

David:
[31:43] She got scorned.

Ron:
[31:44] So like, that's why we're kind of saying the Democrats take over. We're not too optimistic about Clary chances next year just because it doesn't seem like they have the same weight. But I would say the Democrats on the newer side are understanding that either A, crypto is a force to be reckoned with, or B, like, hey, like we kind of screwed up here on the crypto side in 2024 underneath Gensler.

David:
[32:04] And I think it's okay to break ranks and say that.

Ron:
[32:06] Like, we can say that out loud. And that's, again, for a lot of policy issues, you can't do that. But, like, Gallego and Senator Alselbrook going against Elizabeth Warren, that's crazy. And I remember you doing this live stream one time. It was the Genius Act. Elizabeth Warren's posted up in front of the desk. Every senator has to cast their vote.

David:
[32:24] Yeah, and Sheila just, like, looks like this.

Ron:
[32:25] Exactly. So what happens, you'll watch this. So, like, one or two senators, the first ones who go make that vote, it's like Kristen Gillibrand and a few others. They get a little flack. But the second that like two or three senators on the Democratic side pass Elizabeth Warren, sign their vote, you notice about 15 more come afterwards. And that's kind of what it is. It's the ones who are the ones who take guts, take the first step. So we got to give Gallego and we got to give also Brooks like a lot of credit. Like they took a lot of gutsy steps here. And I think it also shows Elizabeth Warren's power is just not what it used to be.

David:
[32:54] Yeah, that was that was a question I'm getting to is like to what degree was Elizabeth Warren's investment in the anti-crypto movement a like political mistake on her part?

Ron:
[33:03] Oh, totally. I mean, like, mind you, they're mostly carrying Gary Gensler's water here. And Gensler's basically told them all, like, hey, I got this. And obviously did not get this. And then Gensler would do, do like, I mean, there should be a movie script about this stuff one day because the stuff that's happened in DC is nuts even for DC standards. Like, my favorite story was when the SEC sued Coinbase, day of they were testifying in front of house agriculture committee and that was so political the timing was so nefarious and it was such a slap to the face of a also the hill but also coinbase saying how dare you go in front of congress oh also we're going to hold off on like filing this until the day before you go in front of congress and it was so backhanded crap like that's the kind of stuff that a why.

David:
[33:46] Would they do that other than other than just to insult them

Ron:
[33:50] That's it.

David:
[33:51] That's the whole thing is just like, hey, you guys are going to be busy, so we're going to sue you on your busiest day when you're at our home.

Ron:
[33:59] That or they're trying to send a narrative message of like, oh, you think you can like, you know, this is what the narrative would be like, oh, you can buy Congress. Or you think you just go to Congress and get around us? Like, I got another message for you. Boom, subpoena. Like, and that's just, again, like that's just one example of the guesswork.

David:
[34:13] But Gary Insler is not even Congress. He's an unelected bureaucrat. So he's making a statement beyond his scope about doing that.

David:
[34:22] And he was, of course,

Ron:
[34:24] Purposely wrecking the entire narrative and flow of the entire hearing, which is on purpose. Again, that was the very political move. But they also kind of show where the SEC at that time was at. They were just doing things for political purposes, and they thought they can dunk on this and be fine with it. And especially after FTX, they're like, well, we have free pass now. So the American people were going to back us up every single time this happens. But like in dc like even just like the democrats like who are against us like and i would you know talking after the fact and like dude what the like that was just a bad move to make and he kept doing it like multiple times and you covered so well on this podcast but it's like after a couple times like dude it's like a vendetta at this point like this is just this is ridiculous right it's getting to this kind of stage and it's more of like you know what's next gary gensler minute video going to be like about schooling us now so so it's like it's also kind of a reaction from that that time in a phase. I mean, you could say the Trump administration and their actions in the crypto space is a complete opposite inverse reaction, but like, that's what happened. Like they fired the gun and that's the results we're dealing with right now.

David:
[35:24] Why was Gary Gensler who he was? What do we know about why he did the things that he did?

Ron:
[35:32] Yeah, it's tough. Because I met Jay Clayton before the Ripple lawsuit and I was working on the Hill and like, you know, and folks had mixed opinions about him and the crypto industry, you know, I thought he was getting a straight shooter with us, but you know, that's a different story of another time. But for Gensler, you know, it seemed like it was more of a personal vendetta, but more of also when the crypto industry started attacking him after of all his actions and again like he was taking me like this is well recorded like he was taking dinners with ftx he was doing, multiple meetings with ftx he was having sit downs with sam personally like like there are multiple instances where even on the lobbying side you could argue that they were getting a little more special treatment or special face time than other companies would have and again of course spending money in dc does that and gives you that access sometimes but like, I don't think he got enough flack for the amount of times he was doing things. A little outside the scope, I would say, with the SEC. Again, doing dinners with FTX multiple times. This was a red flag for me personally. But regardless, like, he stuck into that one mold and, like, just decided to go against it so hard. And my favorite against her narrative, though, was Prometheum. And you covered Prometheum so.

David:
[36:34] Well with Kaplan. Yeah, Prometheum is hilarious.

Ron:
[36:36] That was such a crap issue. And we were texting the member during the hearing. And, you know, like, I'm sitting behind Kaplan. and he's getting these notes from these lawyers during the hearing of what to say and like trying to read off the page and like it's coming every talking point is directly from Gary Gensler and it's directly from Maxine Waters' staff and it's just like, he just keeps repeating the same three sentences over and over again and it's like dude like someone can give this guy new content here because this guy is really going to hold it up here, and the Republicans especially were able to dress it down like look this Promethean is just coming off as this like, they'll abide to the SEC and kiss the ring and say their narrative and try to be the counter industry example but guess what everyone in the industry knows their crap and like they're not doing what it's actually legit so i thought like when they started leaning to those other like kind of proxies and the proxies were not holding water it's like it's kind of obvious and i'm glad like again like folks like you guys like really covered it well because folks in dc like hill staffers who listen to your podcast and be like yeah i don't think this guy knows he's talking about oh.

David:
[37:34] My god okay so between Between Prometheum being like 199% a Gary Gensler front just to like parade here's my point and this value is my point versus like being a legitimate company. It sounds like it was all just a front.

Ron:
[37:53] At that phase, I mean, there's some...

David:
[37:57] We don't know what we don't know, but...

Ron:
[37:59] There's some folks in... I mean, I listen to some podcasts. Like Lee Reiners with Duke University, he's been talking about Promethean ever since day one. So I'm not sure if he's an advisor or something, but he's usually a Democrat witness for a lot of these hearings. And I listen to his podcast. He mentioned something that Promethean's doing two weeks ago. So I guess they're still kicking and doing something. And again, so I apologize. I'm a little out of the loop on what they're doing now. But I haven't heard their names before that.

David:
[38:18] I think that's okay. I think they're irrelevant at this point. Yeah. They are irrelevant.

Ron:
[38:23] Yeah. I don't think there's anything. And again, like they just came off as like, like they just didn't look good. And that hearing, especially like even their own Democrats were attacking Promethean. They're like, yeah, like Richard Torres, God bless him, was just like, this guy's full of crap. So, and like, and again, and all the senators or congressmen, they all saw the lawyer passing the notes. So it's like, they all saw it. Like it's, it was so stupid.

David:
[38:43] So lawyers don't pass notes during hearings. Is that, that's an anomaly?

Ron:
[38:47] Only if you're like really screwing up usually. or you're just like really overpaired. But like, yeah, he was the Democrat, he was only the minority witness. So he was the only witness holding the SEC's talking points. And he just got dressed down completely.

David:
[39:00] Is Elizabeth Warren going to change tune with crypto? Like has she learned her lesson or is she going to try again?

Ron:
[39:05] No, she's still, she doesn't pivot. She never does. But I think everyone in DC, most people in DC have realized like she's always anti something and not really for something. Yeah. So it's like, she's always something for the common man, but every single time interactions say otherwise.

David:
[39:21] Or if she's like against a company,

Ron:
[39:23] It's usually the benefit, as we were kind of saying at Men's with the CoA's example, it's usually the benefit of another company, it seems like. So like it's, and it seems like that's improved.

David:
[39:30] Who happens to be her donor?

Ron:
[39:31] I don't know those links there, but I'm sure a good reporter could probably make some links there. And I'm sure there might be some anomalies. But again, I don't know if anything on that front, but it's worth checking out. But she's not going to pivot. But someone who did pivot though is Sherrod Brown. He's running for Senate again. We ousted him in 2024. He was Elizabeth Warren's spot. Exactly.

David:
[39:49] Yeah, he was the secondhand man to Elizabeth Warren's anti-crypto army. He was like the lieutenant.

Ron:
[39:54] Yeah, and he was the guy at the time who could decide what bills got through. And there was a stablecoin bill three years ago on his desk with Senator Toomey from Pennsylvania. And it was like, if both of them signed off on it, we could have had a stablecoin bill done three years ago. And he was the force that said no. And so Fairshake and others were like, all right, screw it. We're going after this guy. He just killed the stablecoin bill. And he lost his seat because of crypto and other factors too. but like we got brain right now.

David:
[40:19] So he is going for election after getting kicked out and now this time he is, sorry crypto people, I'm pro crypto now.

Ron:
[40:27] And we'll see what happens. Like hypothetically if he does win, which I hope he doesn't just because like I've seen how he pivots like that. I don't trust that. But if he does, he would be Senate Agriculture Chairman. Like he, it's not gonna be, so it'll be Elizabeth Warren and him if the Democrats win the Senate in charge of any- And you don't trust post pivot.

David:
[40:43] Sherard.

Ron:
[40:44] I don't trust post pivot during an election cycle while potentially trying to court crypto money.

David:
[40:51] I see. I see. Okay. Okay. All right. Let's talk about Trump because Trump has, I'm sure, materially impacted the perception of the crypto industry in politics. Maybe you could just talk about what the DC reaction to Trump's personal business involvement to crypto has been.

Ron:
[41:09] This is another scene in the movie that I should write. I mean, I was at the Crypto Ball and again, it was like a bunch of more DC people than crypto people, but like it was a nice party and all that stuff. Like halfway through the party, people were like, look at their phones, like, what the heck? Do we go to war or something? And everyone's talking about the Trump meme coin. And everyone's just like, what the hell is this thing? So I guess, you know, maybe some people knew about that in the room, but overall, like it was in the middle of the actual ball itself and people had no idea what's going on. And the immediate reaction was like, what the hell? So.

David:
[41:40] And that's because the meme coin was built by like one of his affiliate businesses, not actually him, but the crypto ball was actually President Donald Trump doing a pro crypto thing and so those two things were asynchronous to each other

Ron:
[41:54] Right asynchronous at all yeah no one knew at least like i mean i didn't know like anything was going on but like that i'd say most people had no idea what was going on and all of a sudden like we get the news mid mid ball and everyone's kind of like crap literally i actually stopped like you know people we actually got called early you know the boss of the time ceo chris smith's like we have a call 9 a.m tomorrow morning we got to talk about this so so yeah like that was definitely caught a lot of people off guard really financial same thing because i think a lot of people in dc for us, it's like, it's a different crowd of people. It wasn't the people that we dealt with, like, you know, Kraken or Coinbase or Binance. You know, it wasn't like people, I mean, it's not Binance, but it's kind of like not the typical US policy or lawyer type you're dealing with, or even business types. It was just a whole new, like, cast of characters. So again, like, I know some people in crypto are in those spaces. I'm sure they're getting a lot of scrutiny and when Democrats take over the House or Senate, they're definitely gonna get a lot of pull in front of hearings and get to testify and stuff. I mean, it'll be leading to nothing probably, but it's not helpful, I'll put it that way. And I'm sure we're kind of seeing that with the ethics provision would be Clarity Act.

David:
[42:49] Yeah, yeah. But in terms of just like the Republicans' ongoing commitment to crypto, like for the 2028 election and beyond, do you think it's been impacted?

Ron:
[43:02] Not as much, because I'd say like most Republicans have kind of realized like this is the new way, like this is happening, like this space is happening, this is taking off. Now you might disagree with some things here and there, but like overall this is happening. Whereas like the older generations, like I don't think this should be a thing. And so we've kind of gotten past that stage now of survival.

David:
[43:18] I guess the question I should ask, or I want to ask is, to what degree is Trump's conflict of interest staying inside, like, this is a Trump behavior, this is a Trump business conflict of interest, it happens to involve crypto, let's not indict the crypto industry as a whole, or is it kind of like spilling over and being like, you know, crypto's just full of grifts and scams and I don't like the whole damn thing?

Ron:
[43:40] Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be. I mean, narratives shape everything DC. Like, when Treasury wants, or when Gary Gunsler wants to pick a regulator, but they want to have a good narrative out there. They go to the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times. And that's why a lot of times when those publications come out of articles, the crypto industry is like freaking out, like what the hell, who said this? And it's usually like a plan from a regulator or an interest party that wants to try to give a message of like, hey, this is why we need change authorities, for DeFi because North Korea is using crypto and they're hacking crypto. So we need more change authorities. Oh, and by the way, Treasury Tomorrow's going to propose new change authority requests. It's like that's like it's it's so like gamified but once you've seen like how it works and the system works then that's where you kind of thank god for twitter thank god for you guys like you know thank god for kind of newer media kind of being able to break that mold a little bit but overall it's it's a little tougher to kind of see like how the viewpoint is i would say but most republicans are pro crypto it's just more the the trump worldly financial narrative is causing a, It's more the hook of like Saudi investment getting involved. Like that score that dropped a couple of months ago, like that really kickstarted everything to move forward.

David:
[44:48] And that's a national security thing, which I would say is like just totally legitimate.

Ron:
[44:52] Yeah, like that's where you, that's like real national security stuff. Whereas beforehand it was kind of like, hey, like bad actors do bad actors stuff, whatever. This is kind of like, hey, like that, that's probably concerning to both sides. But like for the Democrats though, now we're taking a crypto regulatory bill and we're throwing in a bunch of ethical provisions on the executive branch. And that's going to cause a lot, you know, tension right now.

David:
[45:12] So are we going to get Clarity Act passed?

Ron:
[45:14] So I'm at 45%. I know Alex, the one on your podcast is 70%. I'm at 45.

David:
[45:20] Okay.

Ron:
[45:21] So what's happening right now? So what we're waiting for, we're waiting for the two bills, the agriculture version and the banking version to merge. So like there's differences of like ancillary asset definitions and like all these kind of small, you know, two or three words, but they mean like the world for the legal world. Like, you know, again, like should or would very different implications. And you got to make sure like those language is really tightened up. So they're working on that right now. The goal from Lemus is that she wants to have a vote announced before July 4th and then have a vote before end of July, which would end up in the best case scenario being like September timeframe potentially this gets signed to law. There's a lot of stuff happening in D.C. That's the unfortunate part. And like, you know.

David:
[45:54] The Iran...

David:
[45:55] Outside of crypto, there's a lot of stuff happening.

Ron:
[45:56] So the Iran situation is not, you know, helping things out. We don't have full text yet from banking and ag, but we will soon. And we don't have language yet on ethics. And like the camps are different so much, but the Trump camp went from like no ethics whatsoever to saying we are open to having dialogue with Democrats to find a path forward. So there is a softening on both sides here, but it's getting tricky and we really haven't seen proposals yet. And candidly, again, you have to really sift out. Democrats are here just to try to get election point wins against Trump corruption, crypto grift, or whatever. And which ones are actually trying to get this done and actually try to get a crypto regulatory framework in place? Because they also know that if this doesn't happen this year, it could be like 2028, 20, 2030, when this would get done, because it likely won't happen with a Democrat or Democrats in control of one of the chambers, at least at this stage. It'll probably be another two years at least.

David:
[46:47] Yeah. Yikes. Yikes. say Clarity gets passed or is just like behind us. What is work for crypto on DC like after that? Like after Clarity, what is there to do next?

Ron:
[47:00] I mean, it's going to be probably a lot of defense, unfortunately, because again, just like look at the reality with Democrats. It's a lot of defense. And again, it's going to be a lot of like lumping in sins of one industry actor take, you know, probably Worldly Financial and apply it to the rest of the industry. Like they were trying to say that if Worldly Financial got an OCC charter, no one else in crypto should get another OCC charter because now we have questions about the OCC charter as a whole. So like, it's kind of stuff like that we're going to be playing a lot of defense on.

Ron:
[47:26] It's going to be the tax bill as well. So tax, actually, I think there's going to be a hearing next week, actually, in ways and means. So like things like Litecoin Exchange, Mark to Market, De Minimis, like these are huge half proposals that we've been working on for years. That's kind of now coming to the precipice. It probably won't get done this year. They're going to try, but it's going to probably be the next tax bill. We're going to see a tax revision there on crypto. It'll be huge.

Ron:
[47:47] And then lastly, it'll be DeFi. So the EU right now, no one's like being able to touch DeFi. And in the United States for years, it's been like, hey, look, this is a small market. Let's do central exchange regulation first. And then like, we'll touch DeFi. But like, we don't know the risk parameters fully yet either. And the EU is now trying to tackle DeFi regulation. So they're going to probably mess it up. The UK is trying to tackle it too. The UK is actually, I do UK as well now. So I do a lot of Congress and Parliament. And Parliament's kind of going through a whole like shift recently. It's kind of weird. They've kind of recognized everyone's leaving the UK. A lot of people are leaving the UK and they're trying to onshore firms. So there's always arguments we hear in the US, oh, we're going to leave the United States. But Wermuda is a good example. They actually operate in the United States and they came to the United States after Trump won saying like, hey, this is the number one market. We're here to play. And the UK side, I'm dealing with them being like, they're trying to pass some owner's regulations, very similar to what the Democrats are proposing in Biden regulation era. And they're now saying like, oh, we realize these are bad now. Thanks for explaining it. By the way, don't leave the UK, please. And I think there's been a little turnaround there. So I keep an eye on the UK. And yeah, and keep it on DeFi. Like that's going to be a huge issue. And that's an answer that no one really has done well yet. So if the next staff are listening here, if they want to, like that's a new territory to look at. That's a new frontier. It's a wild west right there, carpet path.

David:
[49:00] What about privacy? Is privacy a subject on Capitol Hill?

Ron:
[49:03] Yeah, so I'll loop in like self-custody and privacy into DeFi as well. I mean, like self-custody has been about my old boss, Warren Davidson. Like that's now his new mantra has been self-custody protection because we've seen that been targeted by both Republicans and Democrats. So I'd say self-custody watched that for sure. And then privacy...

David:
[49:19] Which is having a little renaissance.

Ron:
[49:20] It's kind of the horseshoe one. So you have like the most progressives and the most conservatives. They really do meet in the middle on privacy of all issues. And they're against the national security hawks. And that's a larger delegation. But as time has gone on in the past 10 years, we've seen the banks now going to go Democrat side for some reason. Republicans are now more on the tech side. And privacy is now starting to become more mainstream versus the national security hawk angle here. Not the majority, but like it's growing. So it's coming from younger members. So like hopefully the younger generation kind of encourages privacy here Because as you and I both know, like, it's so different now in this digital world and for all of us.

David:
[49:53] So my understanding has always been privacy is going to be the hardest thing to fight for, for crypto. It's the thing that offends the nation state the most. But maybe that's just not true for Congress. Like it offends like OFAC, Treasury, some like deep state stuff where like, you know, the representatives don't really have the same incentives as Treasury does or as OFAC does. So is Congress more amenable to individual privacy than maybe the whole of the government as a whole?

Ron:
[50:25] Yeah, so I mean, the regulators, like you have more incentive to get as much data as possible because A, it helps you do your job better and you don't care what expense, largely. Because in your job, your remit is to do that one thing. You're trying to fight crime. You want to do whatever you can to fight crime. That means infringing on civil liberties, potentially to go after the bad guy and their job remit, like they got to go after the bad guy here. So, but I think we've seen that been abused by the governments and other entities and third parties so much, the hacks as well. Right. But the American people are kind of done with it.

David:
[50:55] So Congress might align with the American people more than other parts of the government.

Ron:
[50:59] Yeah, but it's kind of like, I hate to make this analogy, but it's kind of like the gun issue. It's like whenever there is like an instance, there is like a crime or something bad has happened. There is an impulse to say like, what can we done to prevent this? And that's where you have the law enforcement and other groups saying like, well, we've had access to everyone's, you know, search in the data. We had no VPNs. Then like we could have solved this crime or prevented it. I see. And at least at some point, hard decisions were made to be like, Like, hey, encryption's fine. Hey, VPNs are fine. Although we're seeing that being now talked about elsewhere and other jurisdictions being banned. So these are really tough, tough lines to draw here. And you have to decide like, hey, if you're going to take a line and something bad happens, like are you going to own up to it or are you going to like unfold? And like that's where Congress does fold a lot. So yeah, it's a bad analogy. I hate to make that, but like it's privacy. I get it. It's tough.

David:
[51:49] So Ron, all the questions that I've asked you are questions that I know to ask you. There are the questions that I don't know to ask you, but I'm sure uncover something really juicy. Is there just a good story that you can tell about just like what it's like

David:
[52:02] to be on D.C., the sex, drugs, rock and roll side of D.C. policy? What else is out there?

Ron:
[52:09] I mean, it's D.C., it's all that. But, you know, it's like everyone calls it like the Hollywood for ugly people or like the high school for adults. Like, you know, it's a very small world. Everyone knows each other. Like the bank lobbyists are some of my good friends. And some of the crypto lobbyists who were skeptics giving me crap years ago from being Captain Crypto are now crypto lobbyists. So it's weird to see how this world works.

David:
[52:31] But I'd say, like,

Ron:
[52:32] You know, the thing about crypto that's always had is the cool factor. Like, it's weird. It's like, you know, like, finance is not a cool issue. Like, foreign affairs is cool. Like, that's what everyone wants to do in D.C. Is foreign affairs. But, like, crypto kind of broke the mold. And we're seeing a little bit with, like, AI a little bit. And all these other organizations will try to do things and make things cool. So, like, Spotify will bring in Diplo to talk about, like, music rights. And, of course, for government staffers who don't get any, like, benefits whatsoever, make low salary, to see a Diplo concert. And then him talking like halfway through about like privacy rights or musician rights, like that's sometimes it moves in the middle in DC. It's like stuff like that. So it's a.

David:
[53:09] Weird- Is crypto's edge being cool to the staffers? That's our angle?

Ron:
[53:13] It kind of is because it's weird. So for example, the staffers I worked with in 2016, one's now like Jill Brand's lead staffer on crypto. The other one's now at the SEC task force doing DeFi stuff. And then like another one's now like one of like the lead lobbyists are like a large company in DC. Like it's so now like these people are major power players they know like what how this world works they don't have to learn about like a tech stack or anything like that and a lot of congressmen like they'd all defer to them and they should because it's a tough issue and like you're not gonna talk to 85 year old center about defi so like you know it's the people who like make dc run this issue because it's so complicated are these people like one layer below and like they are bipartisan sharp as attack and they've there's they don't you don't hear their names a lot but Like, I wish you guys did, but that's their discretion to say if they want to be known or not. But like, it's a weird, small world and we all know each other. So it's a weird, fun place to watch. But I love it. But crypto is the same way. Like, crypto is so small and like, it's cool to see people like in D.C., Miami, New York. Right. That's what I love it for.

David:
[54:12] Yeah, even though crypto is like this industry of protocols and code, it's for some reason just hyper-social. And I think for some reason, whatever reason that's true, that has served us, that phenomenon has served us very, very well in DC.

Ron:
[54:27] It has. And like, it's weird, even being in New York, like Jeremy Allaire goes to the same gym as I do. It's weird seeing him making him like give him a little nod here. But in the same way, we have this camaraderie too. So I get stopped all the time. I have my wintermute shirt on by people just walking around. So, yeah, I saw you at our event the other day, but it's cool to have this camaraderie that I'd say a lot of industries just don't have. And I think a lot of people see that with the crypto industry, like from the outside and being like, hey, like, you know, we all might view ourselves as different sects or the XRP army or whatever. But like to the outside people, we're just kind of all friends. And like, I like that energy and I like that ethos. And I think that's why we've worked so well on combined together when things get tough, like right now. And the personalities, man, the personalities are wild. I think it's like a reality TV show sometimes especially with like with Voorhees and SPF that was a perfect example of like that was like a nerd problem for us in DC because we love to hear that stuff.

David:
[55:17] Amazing amazing Ron those are all the questions I have for you thanks for coming on and just telling me and the Bankless Nation what it's like on your neck of the woods it's

Ron:
[55:25] A weird world man but appreciate you listening and thanks again for having me.

David:
[55:28] Cheers Bankless Nation that's it thanks for being with us as we continue west this frontier it's not for everyone but it is for us and we're glad you're with us on the Bankless Journey thanks a lot