In Defense of The Ethereum Roadmap | Mike Neuder

I'm, only, trusting, the, L2, to, provide, me the, nice, stuff, I'm, not, trusting, it, to provide, me, the, core, stuff, the, the, core property, rights, and, censorship resistance, that, ethereum, is, going, to give me, welcome, to, bankas, where, today, we explore, defense, of, the, ethereum, road, map this, is, Ry, Sean, Adams, I'm, here, with David, Hoffman, and, we, are, here, to, help you, become, more, bankless, the, ethereum road, map, has, been, called, into, question recently, I, think, uh, bangless, has, aired some, of, these, dissents, and, also, say

maybe, two, things, about, that, before, we begin, first, is, this, I, think, dissenting opinions, are, really, important, for, us, to consider, and, uh, David, and, I, will continue, voicing, them, on, Bank, list, and even, when, they're, wrong, I, think, at, best they, help, sharpen, our, ideas, and, uh, both David, and, I, would, rather, air, on, the, side of, open, engagement, than, live, in, an, echo chamber, so, that's, the, first, thing, the second, is, this, I, just, think, we, have, to recognize, yes, this, all, this, road, map angst, recently, could, totally, just, be, a price, thing, as, we, know, in, crypto narrative, follows, price, and, when, price

is, down, people, find, all, sorts, of, reasons to, doubt, their, conviction, and, on, this time, will, tell, but, today's, episode voices, a, counter, to, the, doubters, on, the ethereum, road, map, Mike, Neer, is, an ethereum, developer, and, a, previous bankless, guest, he, thinks, the, ethereum road, map, is, like, pretty, great, as, is, it's right, on, track, in, fact, his, message, is that, we, should, stay, the, course, play, the long, game, and, watch, the, value, of, eth grow, as, a, monetary, asset, as, the, ethereum economy, grows, across, all, sorts, of, layer twos, I, think, there's, some, open, questions that, remain, at, the, end, of, this, episode

The, Core, question, that, I, think, the industry, is, asking, is, is, ethereum's rollup, Centric, road, map, a, queen sacrifice, blunder, or, a, queen, sacrifice endgame, Victory, and, I, think, all, three people, me, and, Ryan, and, the, guest, Mike, on this, pod, today, are, pretty, assured, that it's, the, latter, uh, and, this, episode illustrates, that, endgame, win, scenario for, ethereum, but, still, nonetheless, a second, question, remains, does, the, rollup Centric, road, map, produce, efficient, money for, eth, so, if, we're, sacrificing, layer

one, execution, we're, consistently, going to, expand, the, supply, of, Da, far, beyond demand, what, is, the, structure, that's, left for, eth, to, become, money, and, is, the network, of, chains, that, the, rollup Centric, road, map, blossoms, enough, to create, eth, as, money, I, think, these, are kind, of, the, questions, that, I'm, now pondering, uh, but, I, do, also, enjoy, uh, this idea, that, Mike, uh, echoed, a, couple, times in, the, podcast, that, he, said, also, comes from, danrad, which, is, first, ethereum needs, to, create, value, developers, need, to use, the, block, space, that, ethereum, is

creating, to, create, value, for, the, world and, only, then, will, eth, become, money after, that, and, it, kind, of, reminds, me, of the, Fatal, take, in, 2017, of, did, we, deserve it, uh, eth, will, become, money, uh, if ethereum, deserves, it, I, think, is, one possible, interpretation, of, this, so, let's go, ahead, and, get, right, into, this fantastic, episode, with, Mike, Neer, but first, a, moment, to, talk, about, some, of these, fantastic, sponsors, belas, nation very, excited, to, introduce, you, once, again to, Mike, Neer, he, is, is, a, researcher, at the, ethereum, foundation, I, think, the, last time, we, had, him, on, we're, actually, going through, the, details, of, the, ethereum, road

map, it's, a, fantastic, episode, It's, called endgame, 2.0, where, we, go, through, all, the swim, Lanes, longest, bankless, episode, ever yeah, it, was, right, it's, like, three, hours plus, uh, anyway, it, was, a, fantastic episode, Mike, welcome, to, bankless, yeah thanks, for, having, me, guys, um, again, I feel, like, I, say, this, every, time, I, I'm, on the, show, but, it's, this, was, like, a, huge part, of, of, what, got, me, into, crypto, and and, being, on, here, is, always, a, real, treat so, that's, super, cool, uh, okay, so, um ethereum, is, one, of, the, things, that, got me, into, uh, crypto, as, well, and, so, that the, topic, of, today, is, the, ethereum, in

the, ethereum, road, map, and, I, want, to, set some, context, for, the, conversation, we're about, to, have, so, uh, David, and, I, have recently, had, some, episodes, in, the podcast, that, have, really, called, into question, the, ethereum, endgame, the, the road, map, um, a, road, map, that, has optimized, the, rollup, Centric, view, layer 2, is, that, kind, of, thing, Kyle, Sani, was, a guest, we, had, on, he, he, basically, says this, prioritization, this, roadmap, is, the reason, why, eth, is, down, so, bad, relative to, other, assets, this, cycle, and, he, has his, own, bag, bias, maybe, and, his, own preconceptions, of, course, we, also, had, an

episode, with, Max, Resnik, who, uh, is, a protocol, developer, as, well, and, his, take was, that, the, ethereum, road, map, is, off track, and, uh, went, through, an, episode with, him, where, he, sort, of, describes, it now, your, take, I, think, is, contrary, to those, two, takes, you, think, the, eth, road map, as, it, is, is, pretty, great, we're, going to, discuss, why, you, think, that, but, let, me start, with, the, broadest, of, questions, why is, the, eth, road, map, great, yeah, so, I guess, I'll, start, by, kind, of, setting, the setting, the, framing, for, for, this, episode

and, I, guess, I, wrote, this, article, called ethesis, which, is, a, a, port, of, like, eth and, and, thesis, right, to, this, is, kind, of my, first, stab, at, having, a, bigger, picture understanding, of, of, what, makes, theorum valuable, as, a, platform, and, also, like considering, ether, the, asset, kind, of along, a, bunch, of, different, dimensions including, um, the, rollup, Cent, road, map, so that's, kind, of, like, where, we're, at, and, I do, want, to, say, kind, of, before, jumping into, to, kind, of, how, I, think, that, this, is very, much, a, personal, opinion, like, that is, kind, of, U, an, oped, of, sorts, and, so, I

don't, want, to, like, say, that, I'm, speaking on, behalf, of, the, EF, or, on, the, whole, e theum, Community, this, is, just, like, one person's, perspective, but, um, yeah hopefully, can, can, help, voice, some, of, the arguments, that, um, that, I, think, are, true and, that, a, lot, of, people, might, might resonate, with, so, yeah, I, guess, to, start the, the, kind, of, framing, I, used, in, the article, was um, settlement, da, execution, in, that, order and, so, max, brought, up, this, really, good point, which, is, you, know, we, only, have, a limited, amount, of, kind, of, bandwidth, both both, in, terms, of, how, much, network

capacity, we, can, handle, like, kind, of, on the, physical, layer, but, then, there's, also this, like, this, bandwidth, in, terms, of what, we, as, an, ethereum, Community, can ship, in, terms, of, protocol, upgrades, and so, kind, of, I, think, it, it's, totally accurate, and, valid, to, to, be, thinking, a big, picture, about, how, to, prioritize upgrades, and, changes, and, and, in, in, my article, I, say, that, I, think, settlement, is kind, of, first, and, foremost, the, priority this, is, kind, of, the, fundamentals, of, of eth, as, as, properties, digital, property rights, and, a, lot, of, that, take, was, kind of, inspired, by, the, by, the, bankless thesis, triple, point, asset, thesis, Etc, um

then, the, second, is, kind, of, a, deep, dive on, da, and, kind, of, Beyond, just, thinking about, da, in, terms, of, fees, and, in, terms of, the, value, equal, to, e, asset, I, think it's, also, worth, exploring, some, of, the Nuance, of, Da, in, terms, of, what, it provides, to, rollups, terms, of composability terms, of, network, effects, these, types, of things, um, and, also, just, like, making abundant, block, space, and, kind, of, as, we Usher, in, this, new, era, of, truly decentralized, access, to, to, this, blob space, and, block, space, like, what, what could, be, built, out, in, the, future, and then, execution, kind, of, as, as, the, third

thing, but, still, very, much, a, something, we should, consider, doing, um, and, that's, kind of, focused, on, L1, execution, how, how, that plays, into, the, the, future, of, ZK, and, and scaling, the, base, layer, um, and, that's relationship, to, I, guess, maybe, more, of the, value, cruel, arguments, that, that people, are, very, familiar, with, in, terms of, um, the, burn, Etc, so, yeah, I'd, say that's, kind, of, the, the, flow, of, of, the argument, and, and, what, I, hope, we, can cover, today, yeah, I, think, this, episode does, assume, some, knowledge, so, we're diving, right, into, you, know, 300, level ethereum, crypto, content, so, U, Bist

listener, we'll, include, in, in, the, link some, resources, where, if, you, don't, know what, settlement, da, and, execution, kind, of are, like, some, other, episodes, that, will help, you, out, on, those, terms, but, I, think in, order, to, dive, in, the, deep, end, of, the pool, we, we, have, to, um, you, know assume, some, common, knowledge, across, Bank list, listeners, uh, today, with, with, those terms, and, I, I'll, just, note, that, you, said settlement, da, and, execution, in, that order, that, that's, roughly, what, the existing, ethereum, road, map, kind, of prioritizes, and, I'll, contrast, that, with you, know, what, Max, and, uh, others, uh, have

been, uh, kind, of, saying, which, is, like okay, we, did, some, settlement, in, da, now, we have, to, go, swing, back, towards, execution and, really, focus, on, that, for, the ethereum, layer, one, and, make, that, a priority, rather, than, settlement, and, data availability, so, they, would, probably reorder, what, you, just, said, and, probably put, execution, first, is, that, your impression, of, their, message, yeah, yeah, it is, um, and, I, would, say, this, type, of, kind of, reversal, and, pendulum, swinging, back towards, execution, is, totally, valid, and

totally, worth, considering, but, it, does kind, of, fundamentally, suggest, the question, of, like, where, do, we, expect, user activity, to, take, place, and, I, think, kind of, one, of, these, core, tensions, that, Max was, was, getting, at, his, post, or, in, in, his kind, of, writing, and, and, in, the, podcast was, he, very, much, wants, like, all, the future, of, defi, to, take, place, on, ethereum L1, right, and, so, if, if, that's, the, premise if, that's, where, your, starting, point, is for, kind, of, viewing, the, ethereum, road map, then, I, totally, agree, with, him, you have, to, start, optimizing, the, L1, for execution, because, as, we've, seen, like

activity, is, moving, to, the, l2s, and, it, is moving, kind, of, away, from, the, base, chain but, I, think, the, core, thing, that, that, I disagree, with, him, on, and, and, kind, of, I would, reject, a, bit, in, terms, of, that premise, is, that, you, can, get, the, scalable execution, on, the, L1, without, compromising on, the, settlement, and, kind, of, the decentralization, of, the, L1, in, the, first place, so, his, argument, kind, of, rests, on the, assumption, that, multiple, concurrent proposers, and, and, grade, and, these, kind of, like, new, cool, technology, ideas, will help, keep, the, same, level, of

decentralization, and, and, censorship resistance, of, the, base, chain, while, still allowing, it, to, scale, up, and, I, think, you know, if, that, turns, out, to, be, true, like if, if, that, ends, up, being, um, being something, that, we, can, all, agree, on, then like, full, steam, ahead, like, let's, go, but where, I, would, push, back, is, like, if, we have, any, reason, to, believe, that, we're compromising, on, the, decentralization, and the, kind, of, core, premise, of, censorship resistance, on, the, L1, then, that's, like, a trade-off, that, doesn't, make, sense, to make, in, terms, of, kind, of, like, almost trying, to, to, give, up, what, we're, good, at

um, and, and, Chase, something, that, that we're, not, good, at, and, and, that, feels like, the, fundamental, pivot, that, would, be kind, of, a, strategic, mistake, as, as, an ecosystem as, we, stay, kind, of, higher, level, in, the the, first, part, of, this, podcast, maybe it's, useful, to, kind, of, articulate, what the, main, goal, of, the, ethereum, rollup Centric, road, map, is, what, the, North, Star is, I, think, if, you, go, and, you, you, look, at that, uh, those, five, different, swim, Lanes of, the, ethereum, road, map, The, Verge, spge uh, Scourge, uh, all, all, the, urges, Splurge Splurge, yeah, uh, it's, pretty, easy, to, kind

of, get, lost, in, the, sauce, of, like, what each, one, of, these, things, are, doing, oh there's, five, different, Lanes, five different, goals, um, maybe, you, can, weave these, the, goals, of, ethereum, together, how would, you, describe, the, actual, main, goal of, the, rollup, Centric, road, map, what, is the, North, Star, yeah, I, think, right, now the, the, North, Star, is, growing, the, amount of, economic, activity, that, takes, place, in the, ethereum, ecosystem, and, in, the ethereum, ecosystem, kind, of, includes, l2s rollups, specifically, that, that, use

ethereum, da, and, so, donr, had, this, really awesome, point, in, in, a, recent, AMA, where he, said, like, before, we, can, thinking about, um, like, value, ACR, or, like, why, eth you, know, is, going, to, be, a, long-term valuable, asset, we, have, to, think, about value, creation, and, that, value, creation is, going, to, come, from, people, actually like, getting, onchain, using, using, digital assets, swapping, sending, money, across borders, Etc, so, yeah, I, think, kind, of first, and, foremost, the, the, goal, here should, be, to, onboard, more, users, and, to increase, activity, on, the, l2s, and, if, you

look, at, l2b, like, things, are, looking great, on, on, that, angle, right, you, look, at like, number, of, transactions addresses, um, volume, on, the, l2s, and, and it's, kind, of, like, nothing, but, up, and, to the, right, so, I, think, that's, that's fundamentally, where, where, we, start, and that's, in, my, mind, still, like, the, the number, one, goal, of, of, what, ethereum should, be, doing, and, that's, why, when we're, looking, forward, to, the, kind, of next, phases, of, these, hard, Forks, stuff like, P, ass, stuff, like, f, dang, sharding which, continue, to, optimize, for, like creating, this, abundant, block, space, are

are, still, very, high, on, the, priority, list because, I, think, everyone's, under, the assumption, that, sure, like, da, is, cheap right, now, but, we're, going, to, hit, this point, of, growth, where, ethereum, needs, to keep, scaling, the, da, fast, enough, to, keep up, with, um, the, demand, for, that, block space, so, yeah, I, think, kind, of fundamentally, increasing, the, amount, of economic, activity, on, in, the, in, an, around the, ethereum, ecosystem, is, is, the, goal right, now, and, and, I, guess, the, the, last thing, I'll, add, here, is, that, the, kind, of core, principle, of, preserving, the neutrality, of, ethereum, block, space, is

the, other, kind, of, counterargument, for and, and, kind, of, the, the, force, is, also working, in, terms, of, making, sure, that, you know, me, doesn't, result, in, a, highly centralized, and, and, censored, chain, to maybe, articulate, what, uh, I, think, you said, um, uh, we, created, uh, with, Bitcoin, we created, this, thing, called, block, space secure, block, space, uh, now, ever, since Bitcoin, we've, been, learning, what, to, do with, it, then, the, ethereum, project, comes along, with, smart, contracts, and, we, can, do

even, more, things, with, block, space, uh, and I, think, maybe, what, to, what, you're, saying with, with, Dank, Rad's, take, is, well, with you, know, cheap, data, availability, with layer, tws, we, have, so, much, cheap, block space, and, now, we, have, surface, area, for people, to, do, things, that, create, value for, the, world, with, this, thing, that, we've created, called, block, space, uh, and optimizing, for, Value, creation, by leveraging, secure, block, space, is, the correct, Northstar, of, the, ethereum, road map, let's, increase, the, ethereum, GDP, by

giving, people, block, spased, consumers, the tools, that, they, need, to, create, as, much value, as, possible, using, the, quality, the high, quality, block, space, that, ethereum has, and, in, order, to, preserve, high quality, block, space, we, need, to, have strong, censorship, resistance, mechanisms we, need, to, make, sure, that, me, doesn't corrupt, the, chain, uh, and, that's, why we're, kind, of, focusing, on, some, of, the things, that, we're, focusing, on, in, 2024, is that, is, that, a, way, to, articulate, um, the summarized, Point, yeah, exactly, and, I think, there's, also, kind, of, a, nice element, here, that, comes, in, which, is, as scaling, kind, of, increases, on, the, l2s, and

as, as, some, of, this, Tech, evolves, and, and ZK, EVMS, continue, to, kind, of, increase, at this, this, astounding, rate, some, of, that execution, scaling, and, kind, of, the, the more, long-term, futuristic, I, guess, uh sci-fi, chain, stuff, that, Justin, would talk, about, can, can, kind, of, come, into, the fold, um, kind, of, as, it, becomes, ready, so, I think, again, this, is, like, part, of ethereum, superpower, is, like, the, ability to, kind, of, scale, trustless, and, scale decentralization, while, still, absorbing all, of, the, awesome, open, source, tech, and

and, kind, of, magic, cryptography, that, that gets, built, out, in, the, system, Mike, in your, article, you, call, um, the, essence, of ethereum, property, rights, uh, and, I, think that's, uh, that's, a, lens, that, we certainly, enjoy, uh, property, rights, I don't, think, uh, was, a, big, part, of, the ethereum, white, paper, I, don't, know, how many, times, this, idea, of, property, rights was, mentioned, in, the, early, days, of ethereum, uh, but, nonetheless, you're calling, it, The, ESS, the, essence, of ethereum, uh, so, what, does, property, rights have, to, do, with, ethereum, and, how, is, it just, aligned, with, this, North, Star, uh

that, we, were, just, talking, about, I, don't think, it, was, used, in, the, white, paper, not because, it's, um, it's, like, a, difference in, in, fundamental, views, but, more, so, like we, have, a, different, terminology, and, a different, language, to, understand, the same, thing, which, is, um, kind, of, first, and foremost, self-, custody, right, like, this is, the, main, thing, in, my, mind, that differentiates, like, one, of, the, core things, that, differentiates, assets, that you, hold, on, a, blockchain, versus, assets that, you, hold, in, a, bank, right, it's, you know, you'd, have, to, come, to, someone's house, and, physically, take, their, their

private, keys, in, order, to, to, seize, their assets, secondly, I, think, property, rights as, um, as, a, focus, of, what, actually, is, the kind, of, measurable, thing, you, get, from decentralization, right, so decentralization, was, always, part, of, the kind, of, core, ethereum, vision, and, I, still see, decentralization, as, mostly, a, means to, preserving, credible, block, space, so you, know, it's, great, if, I, can, self- custody, my, eth, at, my, house, and, I, have, my private, key, whatever, but, in, order, to actually, like, make, use, of, the, chain, in

order, to, send, someone, eth, in, order, to, to kind, of, participate, in, this, online economy, Beyond, just, like, storing, the, and self-, custody, the, eth, in, a, cold, wallet, I also, need, to, be, able, to, send transactions, and, you, know, neutrality, of ethereum's, block, space, is, kind, of, this idea, that, if, I, want, to, send, a transaction, like, no, one, can, can, choose to, exclude, me, from, that, Financial ecosystem, so, yeah, I, would, say, the, kind of, first, and, foremost, thing, is, self- custody, but, also, being, able, to, interact with, the, state, that, ethereum, creates, and the, the, economic, platform, that, it

Services, is, like, a, huge, part, of, what, it means, to, like, maintain, and, preserve property, rights, of, of, digital, assets, I think, David, and, I, have, always, seen Bitcoin, as, like, also, a, property, right system, and, but, like, a, property, right system, that, does, one, thing, it, uh, secures and, preserves, the, property, right, of Bitcoin, right, narrow, property, rights it's, kind, of, like, a, a, mono, asset platform, right, and, so, it's, sort, of, a narrow, view, of, of, property, rights, and this, whole, kind, of, meme, around, uh digital, gold, the, question, of, like, well what, secures, the, digital, gold, and, and

the, answer, is, a, Bitcoin, block, space right, this, is, uh, different, than, gold, in the, physical, world, where, you, have, you know, uh, the, periodic, table, of, elements that, that, makes, it, uh, you, know, sort, of uh, censorship, resistant, it's, like impossible, to, go, reproduce, Gold, without expending, more, energy, than, just, like kind, of, like, mining, it, in, the, first place, and, of, course, you, can, um, custody your, gold, uh, in, your, house, and, you, might guard, it, you, might, put, it, in, a, vault, or you, might, bury, it, and, hide, it, in, various places, and, so, that's, kind, of, a, cost, of

the, system, anyway, um, the, the, traditional way, in, meat, space, that, we've, um preserved, property, rights, for, for, be assets, as, as, we've, tried, to, like, secure them, U, by, force, you, know, you, have, a vault, or, you, have, guards, with, guns, uh and, in, um, of, course, the, on, the, internet in, the, digital, world, that's, not, possible so, we, we, created, this, product, called Bitcoin, block, space, which, can, now, secure Bitcoin, well, ethereum, does, that, with, all sorts, of, assets, like, any, type, of, asset

not, just, BR, property, rights, yeah, right not, just, a, single, store, value, Asset although, it, has, that, it's, called, ether but, any, token, that, you, might, want, to spin, up, I, guess, though, there, are, some limits, uh, in, terms, of, things, that, we can't, fully, secure, on, a, property, right system, like, ethereum, so, we, have, these kind, of, Crypt, native, Bearer, assets, like like, ether, and, the, various, uh, erc20 tokens, that, are, only, native, and, only available, on, the, ethereum, network, but there, are, some, limits, there, are, some

things, that, we, can't, secure, on, uh ethereum, so, what, types, of, property rights, can, we, secure, on, ethereum, what are, kind, of, the, limitations, here, yeah for, sure, so, I, think, you're, totally, right in, calling, out, that, kind, of, crypto, or dig, Crypton, native, assets, are, like, the kind, of, most, permissionless, and, most Sovereign, of, of, all, of, these, crypto assets, right, like, no, one, can, actually take, away, my, ether, without, getting, the ethereum, network, to, agree, on, an, invalid State, transition, or, or, coming, and, taking my, keys, now, obviously, like, I, think, the

elephant, in, the, room, in, terms, of, assets that, that, live, on, the, ethereum blockchain, but, are, are, clearly, not imbued, with, the, same, level, of, property rights, are, like, things, that, have, a, real world, component, right, so, the, canonical example, of, this, would, be, stable, coins there's, also, like, kind, of, broader, push for, tokenization, of, real, world, assets generally, um, but, once, you, kind, of, make that, bridge, between, the, digital, space, in the, real, space, like, there, is, a, bridge between, the, bank, account, that, Circle, has and, you, know, the, the, usdc, token, that's

on, chain, you, kind, of, you, do, have, some reduction, in, the, in, the, property, rights like, there, is, a, counterparty, here, which is, circle, right, so, circle, is, ultimately The, Ledger, of, record, for, usdc, not ethereum, right, because, if, I, have, some usdc, and, circle, Ides, like, I'm, going, to take, away, Mike's, usdc, they, can, do, so, by by, just, you, know, turning, off, the transfer, button, on, my, on, my, usdc, so, yeah I, I, do, think, it's, like, very, important, to acknowledge, that, a, lot, of, the, value that's, stored, on, on, blockchains, does have, this, counterparty, risk, and, you, know

in, order, to, truly, scale, permissionless and, and, kind, of, True, trustless, Value, and um, value, creation, we, need, to, lean, into these, these, Crypton, native, assets, and and, Hope, that, they, continue, to, get, used um, like, obviously, maker, and, and, D, like was, the, original, idea, for, this, you, can kind, of, collateralize, a, a, stable, coin obviously, they, have, some, real, world components, in, in, their, design, now, that that, kind, of, changed, the, the counterparty, risk, there, but, yeah fundamentally, I, see, I, see, kind, of, the digital, native, assets, the, crypto, native

assets, as, as, the, core, value, of, of, the kind, of, economic, system, that, we're creating, so, with, this, uh, property, rights frame, of, reference, maybe, we, can, bring, uh bring, back, up, like, censorship, resistance and, Caesar, ship, Caesar, ship, resistance why, are, these, things, important, uh, when we, have, this, brand, new, like, property rights, system, because, like, so, much, of ethereum's, time, over, the, last, like, two years, the, EF, researchers, has, been, around like, censorship, resistance, uh, and, things like, Mev, which, you, know, some, people

perceive, Mev, is, just, like, back, door theft, uh, so, why, why, is, resistance, to these, things, so, important, here, yeah, so uh, when, I, started, my, article at, the, very, top, I, put, a, quote, from, Hayek who's, like, one, of, the, original, Austrian economics, thinkers, and, and, I'll, just read, it, and, he, says, what, our, generation has, forgotten, is, the, system, of, private property, is, the, most, important, guarantee of, freedom, and, obviously, like, this, kind of, leans, more, into, the, political, economy and, the, kind, of, theory, of, personal freedoms, and, Liberties, but, I, definitely

do, believe, that, a, huge, part, of, modern society, is, like, having, access, to, to private, property, and, being, able, to, store that, value, without, the, risk, of, kind, of an, authoritarian, regime, or, someone, with a, gun, coming, like, someone, who, has, a monopoly, on, violence, um, kind, of, taking away, access, to, your, to, your, value, so, you know, I, always, come, back, to, the, to, the Canada, trucker, example, because, I, think it, was, it, was, just, so, shocking, to, me, um because, they, were, they, were, trying, to like, exercise, their, free, speech, and, that

Free, Speech, got, taken, away, by, the seizure, of, their, assets, and, you, know, a few, more, examples, that, I, think, are, super relevant, and, I, actually, heard, about through, your, guys', podcast, um, first, was Cynthia, Lumis, who, came, on, your, show, a few, weeks, ago, and, she, was, talking, about how, she, was, debanked, basically, after, her her, husband, passed, away, suddenly, and just, like, it, shows, you, and, and, I, know you, guys, were, were, also, debanked, at, at some, point, when, you, you, you, as, a, company like, are, not, able, to, function, and, and you, know, as, a, media, company, like, that's

that's, sort, of, taking, away, your, freedom of, speech, right, like, if, you, can't, spend money, on, um, equipment, and, you, can't, pay your, utility, bills, and, stuff, then, like fundamentally, any, capture, of, of, your property, takes, away, your, freedom, of speech, and, and, that's, fundamentally, like the, civil, and, kind, of, human, right, that that, feels, like, it's, really, important, to preserve, especially, under, today's, regime like, I, think, it's, you, know, maybe, over the, past, 40, years, kind, of, especially, for people, who, live, in, in, the, US, like, this

wasn't, really, a, concern, and, I, think, a lot, of, people, have, a, very, similar opinion, about, um, privacy, their, own, data right, it's, like, privacy, of, your, data, is not, that, different, from, having, property rights, over, your, over, your, money, right like, if, you're, willing, to, concede, that the, government, can, can, read, anything, you write, and, you, know, you're, like, I, have nothing, to, hide, why, why, should, I, be worried, about, it, then, I, think, um, if, you kind, of, view, that, only, from, the, lens, of being, in, a, a, highly, developed, country with, like, a, strong, you, know, rule, of, law and, and, like, a, strong, currency, then, yeah

it, might, not, make, as, much, sense, but, like we're, seeing, that, huge, amounts, of, crypto adoption, are, actually, taking, place, in, in places, with, more, authoritarian, regimes or, like, weaker, currency, and, so, yeah, I guess, fundamentally, these, things, feel like, they, might, become, more, important, in in, the, world, as, we, kind, of, move, into this, maybe, less, stable, period, with, um less, clear, like, monop, power, in, the, US, um and, yeah, I, think, I, I, think, this, type, of stuff, is, it, doesn't, matter, until, it's the, only, thing, that, matters, and, and

property, rights, feel, like, fundamental, as as, a, human, right, so, your, answer, Mike, to the, question, of, like, why, has, ethereum really, prioritized, seizure, resistance and, censorship, resistance, your, answer, is to, increase, the, settlement, assurances for, the, property, that, is, held, inside, of ethereum, and, all, of, the, economy, and transactions, that, are, tied, to, it, it's all, about, property, rights, and, increasing the, settlement, insurances, so, if, I, have ether, and, I, want, to, send, it, to, somebody I, know, that, they're, nobody, on, Earth, can

actually, stop, me, from, doing, that, that's basically, the, summary, of, why, ethereum has, prioritized, these, these, two, features right, and, the, kind, of, core, I, guess underlying, assumption, here, is, that, if you, give, up, on, decentralization, you, give up, on, that, strong, settlement, Assurance because, you, open, um, some, Surface, by which, either, like, a, nation, state, or, a giant, Corporation, can, control, the outcomes, of, this, of, this, economy, so, yeah I, think, that's, kind, of, the, fundamental

grounding, of, of, decentralization, and, why it, makes, sense, for, ethereum's, road, map, I think, the, the, first, part, of, this conversation, that, we've, had, so, far, has just, been, kind, of, just, like, reating, why ethereum, is, important, why, we're, all, here why, we, align, with, this, project, that, has this, Grand, Arc, that, we've, been, following for, years, and, years, uh, and, this, idea, of just, like, unlocking, property, rights, for the, internet, has, like, pilled, so, many people, that's, why, we, have, this, podcast it's, why, you're, at, the, EF, uh, really really, great, like, foundation, for, I, think

what, we, want, to, talk, about, next, because there, has, been, some, parts, of, the ethereum, road, map, that, I, think, haven't been, formally, like, integrated, into, a, lot of, people's, mental, models, that, have, been developed, in, the, past, like, we, have, the triple, point, asset, we, have, ultrasound money, rollup, Centric, road, map, uh, and, we haven't, really, integrated, rollups, very well, in, our, content, sphere, on, Bank, list yet, as, it, relates, to, this, idea, of property, rights, or, the, property, rights layer, the, internet, or, or, you, know, said differently, we, haven't, really, integrated how, do, rollups, fit, into, like, the, M, the

the, value, acral, mechanisms, for, eth, uh now, that, we, have, a, rollup, Centric, road map, how, does, that, change, the, triple point, asset, or, like, ultrasound, money, so I, think, that's, what, we, want, to, do, and then, this, next, part, of, this, conversation is, like, really, unpack, in, 2024, what, do rollups, do, to, these, pre-establish, mental models, that, we've, covered, so, much, in, the past, uh, and, so, maybe, we, can, start, with there, uh, how, do, rollups, expand, ethereum block, space, uh, and, is, that, also, the, same thing, as, expanding, ethereum's, property rights, system, because, we, have, two different, things, here, we, have, property

rights, and, then, we, have, ethereum, block space, I, don't, know, if, those, are, one, to one, equivalent, are, those, the, same, things are, those, different, and, overall, like, how do, rollups, fit, into, this, like, model, for understanding, ethereum, first, and foremost, we, should, consider, how, the, uh L2, consumption, of, ethereum, block, space imbus, some, similar, censorship, resistant seizure, ship, resistant, properties, on, two assets, and, kind, of, fundamentally, how, I think, about, this, is, the, rollups, are effectively, represented, some, of, their

state, is, represented, on, ethereum, as, this canonical, bridge, and, the, assets, that live, in, that, ethereum, space, are, able, to be, used, in, the, in, the, Roll-Ups, because when, you, you, are, sure, that, your, rollup assets, have, the, same, censorship resistant, properties, that, they, would have, on, ethereum, L1, right, so, there's kind, of, two, components, to, this, first there's, becoming, a, stage, two, rollup, and we, can, maybe, talk, about, some, of, the details, there, maybe, not, but, this, is, kind of, around, the, details, of, the, smart contract, Bridge, itself, and, who, has, the

permission, to, upgrade, the, bridge, who, has permission, to, upgrade, the, state, these are, fundamentally, things, about, like, the representation, of, the, Assets, in, the bridge, and, how, those, assets, can, be withdrawn, the, second, thing, is, the, kind of, force, withdraw, mechanism, from, L2, to L1, and, fundamentally, I, see, this, as, kind of, like, the, freedom, of, movement, for, your L2, assets, right, and, this, is, this, is, very much, the, same, as, kind, of, what, we, were talking, about, earlier, with, a, bearer asset, on, ethereum, where, I, can, send, it and, I, know, no, one, in, the, world, can, stop me, from, sending, it, in, the, same, way, if, I

have, an, asset, on, an L2, and, that, L2, has, this, forced, inclusion mechanism, I, know, that, I, have, that, same right, which, is, even, if, the, L2, starts censoring, me, even, if, all, of, the, L2 operators, collude, against, me, and, decide like, I, want, to, steal, that, guy's, money they, are, not, able, to, do, so, I, can, Bridge my, money, down, to, the, L1, and, and, kind, of take, my, take, my, assets, elsewhere, so those, are, kind, of, like, the, core, ways that, I, see, l2s, as, inheriting, ethereum security, and, ethereum, censorship resistance, now, kind, of, and, therefore property, rights, like, those, two, things

come, together, as, like, okay, ethereum, is offering, assurances, on, property, rights yeah, exactly, and, so, given, that, now, I think, the, l2s, have, like, a, more, flexible design, space, over, how, they, provide, users what, kind, of, the, daily, users, want, beyond those, two, core, things, which, is, fast transactions, good, onboarding, offboarding low, fees, yeah, the, sexy, stuff, right, so you, know, as, a, user, I, could, be, a, lot, more comfortable, knowing, that, like, most, of, my activity, is, going, to, happen, on, the, L2, so

long, as, I, know, I, still, have, my, like, core self-, sovereignty, over, the, assets themselves, and, I, think, you, know, in, the long, run, that's, going, to, be, very important, because, some, l2s, that, don't inherit, the, security, of, ethereum, are going, to, end, up, with, decreased, property rights, for, their, assets, and, this actually, happened, already, right, on, blast so, there, was, a, there, was, a, hack, on, blast everyone, talks, about, it, as, if, it, was, a good, thing, and, I, think, it's, kind, of, a blessing, and, a, curse, but, this, munchable protocol, got, hacked, for, $60, million, and you, know, they, basically, communicated

with, the, with, the, hacker, and, said, hey, um we're, going, to, update, the, the, contract and, and, take, away, your, money, and, they just, sent, it, back, and, so, it's, kind, of like, okay, this, is, a, weird, dystopian, end game, where, we're, like, doing, this, hostage negotiation, through, ether, scan, but, that just, doesn't, feel, like, an, actual, like thing, that, should, be, able, to, happen, if I'm, using, an, L2, and, I'm, trusting, the, L2 to, kind, of, I'm, only, trusting, the, L2, to provide, me, the, nice, stuff, I'm, not trusting, it, to, provide, me, the, core, stuff the, the, core, property, rights, and

sensorship, resistance, that, ethereum, is going, to, give, me, so, so, currently, um let's, say, do, layer, twos, provide, the, same property, rights, as, ethereum's, layer, one block, space, you, you, kept, using, this phrase, uh, stage, two, and, of, course, if people, want, to, understand, what, that means, they, can, go, to, uh, l2b, which, tracks kind, of, the, the, stage, progress, of, all, of these, layer, twos, and, the, case, that, you just, mentioned, Mike, with, blast, blast, is basically, stage, zero, okay, it's, like along, its, decentralization, Journey, so has, the, ability, does, does, not, have, the