214 - L2 Tokens: Bullish or Bearish? with Sassal, Jordi, & Ippolito

you mentioned the high valuations of like these layer 2os right now like you actually do a DCF on them right now and yeah they're losing money on paper right massively bleeding money on paper and they shouldn't be worth what they're worth but I think bull market things obviously but also that kind of like shelling point premium too I'll just buy that cuz it's it's a lazy thing and most people want to be lazy about it like I'll just buy that don't have to think too hard about it and that's why things like memec coins are popular too ah you know I like a meme coin cuz it's just easy to buy oh there's a dog with a hat on it I'll buy that cool you know so there's a lot of that going on and that's why we see these valuations but I

think again longterm that kind of reality sets in welcome to bank list where we explore the frontier of Internet money and the internet finance and today we explore the frontier of layer 2os this is Ryan Sean Adams I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more bankless guys we did a panel about two months ago on uh 2024 ether the asset we brought the same panelists on that episode now we're running it back this time we got layer twos under the

microscope so we have Mike EPO uh we've got Jordi Alexander and we've got Anthony cesano in what I think is an expert panel on where layer twos are going and how these tokens might accuse some value so a few things we covered today number one what's the bull case for layer twos how would these panelists articulate it number two what about the tokens are layer twos just worthless governance tokens or is there something there number three we talk about which layer twos are going to be bullish this cycle and why number four we talk about the layer 2 experiments the new things

you haven't yet seen that are under development the best experiments that are going on today and number five we end with this question what are the best ways to get exposure to layer 2os you just buy eth or is there some mix of tokens that make sense I think there's just such a large number of ways to think about layer tws and those number of ways can also change depending on when or where in the market cycle we are in a bull market in a bull cycle the ways to think about layer twos are going to be different than in the bare market

right like I think it's going to be narrative mind share ideas and energy in a bull market and maybe a reversion back to fundamentals in a bare Market but it's always going to be both of those things playing off of each other just with different weights and overall with alongside the development in the shared sequencing landscape the intense landscape uh aggregation layers there is a bunch of middleware being born in the Layer Two world that is also going to shift the dynamic of what a layer two

can be and how one can be constructed I think this will go in we didn't really talk about shared sequencing or any of the um composability infrastructure that's being built but as that part of ethereum does get built I think the second half of this conversation where we talked about layer 2 experimentation is going to become even more relevant because as ethereum solves some of its composability problems composability issues the ability to spin up a crazy new layer to that innovates on a completely different like design surface area is just going to become easier and easier and easier overall I think

everything in this market is catching a bid right now uh including layer twos uh and so really this episode is kind of just meant to answer why uh and what that will look like moving forward into this bull market all right we're going to get right to the episode but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this possible including bankless Nation we're running it back today we got Mike iolo the Relentless podcaster from block Works Mike how you doing doing very well David thanks for having me on and of course Jordy Alexander Chief Alchemist at mantle Jordy welcome back I am punked let's go

go and bringing up the rear Anthony Sano the infinite Creator over at the daily guay also the infinite bll Anthony what's up my man what's up I'm very good uh I'm not as pumped as Jordi I think he's pretty pumped this morning but uh I'm doing good and thanks for having me on yeah of course okay so uh about two months ago we released an episode that we titled uh eth in 2024 as eth was has been going through some Growing Pains about where it wants to be as a network for itself e the asset uh and its trajectory uh and I

think that that was very helpful for for me and for everyone I think really understanding eth's place in the current moment in history and I think we want to do something pretty similar for the layer on top of ethereum which are its layer twos um there is a a it's a much more nuanced conversation because you know eth and ethereum are just these One Singular networks and assets but layer 2os can be anything uh and we have the current crop of layer twos we have incoming crops of layer twos we have

patterns that extend across all layer twos and then some layer twos are just uh much more um unique more much more like app chains uh and so I think we kind of want to just kind of do some bare bow analysis of the different uh components that makes up layer twos layer 2 world uh and there's probably like a hundred different ways to to start this conversation but maybe we can just uh try and ask about each of your guys's General Frameworks about the bull or bease for layer 2 to tokens what are

the things what are the truisms that are true about all layer twos about why they will or will not go up in price uh maybe Mike I can throw this one to you like what when you think about the valuation of layer 2 networks and their respective assets what are the properties what are the things you think about first and foremost yeah I I think um maybe to put this within the context of layer twos as they exist today on ethereum I've talked about this a little bit before but my mental model for ethereum is the purpose of the protocol today is to export its

canonical asset eth in the safest way possible and the l2s are basically the best way to do that so you've got sort of settlement and consensus happening on eth and you've got all the execution happening on the layer twos and I think if you look at the l2s through almost purely that lens you see just a massive amount of Tailwinds that these l2s have to Surf if you just head over to l2b you can look at this just Relentless up only chart which is assets flowing onto the layer twos and that can be from I think of the there's like 27 billion of assets

sitting on the collective Suite of layer twos today about 15 billion of that is eth that's been bridged from main chain so yeah there's just tremendous Tailwinds in terms of the assets and network effects that are flowing onto layer twos and then ran is showing his screen for all the podcast listeners and we're of course looking at a chart that is going up only and Ryan I think if you even denominate that in eth it also still goes up only so it's both US Dollars and in eth terms where this thing is just only going up yeah it's it's it's phenomenal and the the

specific construction of layer twos allows you to uh obviate a lot of the negative tradeoffs of some of the more centralized parts of of the setup so I think maybe just to maybe just to start there like that I think the bull case for eth layer twos in the meantime but I'd be curious what the rest of the panels the panelists have to say just just to really um uh kind of maybe summarize what your point uh uh is that layer twos are in a fight for eth uh and so like whether or not a layer 2 token goes up or down in price you think it's going to be perhaps largely determined

by its ability to capture eth on its Network yeah and I think that's going to lead to massive amount of network effects for the l2s that capture the most amount of eth and then maybe maybe one more point to just you brought up the tokens specifically but a lot of people have been talking about uh like the major l2s like optimism or arbitrum as being eth beta which I agree but I would also add maybe a Nuance that I think the l2s will be the Crypton native way to bid on eth this cycle probably whereas I think a lot of what's going to drive the price of eth is going to be more of an Institutional bid so may just

one bit of nuance Mike you were talking about uh eth beta in the context of it being like investment beta right at yeah that sort of thing rather than like not a beta Network for ethereum you're talking about investment yeah it's investment beta so if eth goes up this much the L2 will go up that times you know 1.5 or whatever Anthony you want to uh just pick up the thread from Mike I I know you got a bunch of things to say where do you want to take this from here I would say that I completely agree with pretty much everything Mike said uh I think it's a really great framework for thinking about these things and

obviously I'm hyper bullish on on layer twos right uh especially the ones built on ethereum because I know that some other networks uh kind of like vying now to get layer 2os built on them not not really much happening there but I know it's going to become a thing but yeah specifically I guess the ones built on ethereum for yeah the same reasons like the network effects is is of ether as an asset is just going to increase uh you know so much through through these networks but I do want to say though that like I actually can think of like way more reasons to be bearish on like The Tokens The L2 tokens longterm

specifically than I can to be bullish on them and that's not to say that I don't think uh some of them will be very very valuable but there's so many of them now and they're all competing on like well at least the generalized l2s are all competing on the same kind of axis and like we've already seen the power law effects play out on the layer one tokens like BTC and eth being worth just so much more than every other layer one token that I feel like it's going to be a similar thing with the L2 ones and I think that there's still a lot of open questions around these L2 tokens like how they're going to capture value

longterm I do agree short term like they're going to have these hype Cycles they're going to be like this beta against e things like that but like the long-term value acal questions are still there and I think that they also have things that like eth doesn't have like for example they've got a lot of VC investment with VC unlocks and and those sorts of things and that overhang that eth just doesn't have so obvious obviously on the eth bull episode that we did I was like hyper bullish eth and you know I I find it very easy to be very bullish on eth but when it comes to the L2 tokens even though I'm I should disclose I'm an investor in a lot of

them as an angel uh I just find it hard to you know know which ones are going to long-term be value you know AC a lot of value and how they're going to AC a value against eth as well because I'm not just measuring against USD I'm still I'm also measuring it against against eth as well because if you're going to call them eth beta I guess you're going to expect them to outperform eth right over over longer periods of time as well so okay just to to put a fine tip on that so but both Mike and Anthony are saying layer 2os are bullish for ether the asset and the monetary properties of ether the asset so it starting to sound

like we already did that episode we're focusing on the tokens right I will point now after this episode you know I think eth's up you know 80 billion in the last two months so so well done panelist for that we appreciate you guys um so so but but let let's get into the time Horizons there because you mentioned shortterm versus longterm and we definitely want to have a discussion around value acrel of tokens but I I want to hear what you mean when you say short-term versus long-term when you say short-term Anthony where you see some um you know

value uh you appreciation of tokens Maybe beta to eth as Mike just said are you talking about short-term being this cycle the next few months like longterm to you is what like five to 10 year time Horizon versus shortterm is what you know 12 months to 18 months this cycle yeah I I would say longterm yeah five you know plus years sort of thing um and shortterm is definitely for the cycle right but at the same time I think the crypto Cycles are changing as well so it's just going to become even harder now to Define these things but yeah

shortterm typically I refer to like General kind of crypto bull market cycle so not the bare Market part of the cycle like the bull part which we're pretty much currently in right so maybe like the next 12 to 18 months uh and then yeah longterm is like five plus years I just really cuz like the industry changes so much in in five years right like it just reinvests itself so much in those 5 years that while I'm bullish on on the layer twos themselves I just don't know you know which ones are going to be the big Winners like right now we obviously have some leaders but like do they stay the leaders right or does

someone else come along and just eat their lunch because these things happen all the time right there it's really hard to have a mo in crypto uh like es specifically when you're trying to build things like um on the execution side of things I think settlement uh is you know a pretty strong Moe like Bitcoin and ethereum offer very strong settlement guarantees and that's a that's a very strong Moe that's solely based on a lot of uh different factors that I don't think the layer 2's kind of share there so yeah I mean if I was to pick a layer 2 token to buy today and like hold it for 5 years I couldn't give you any I honestly like I could I would not feel

comfortable holding any of them for 5 years right now now Jordy what's your take on this what would you add you know I I like a lot of the stuff Anthony said uh I do think about you know this short-term versus longterm the reality is there are short-term games going on you'll see like something like Manta you know they'll they'll do some nice kind of game get like a bunch of you know billion dollars locked up somewhere hype people because there's an airdrop airdrop gets listed and you know we'll see like in 5 years where those you know projects are and maybe they're doing

incred well maybe like you know it's it's flourishing but it seems a little too easy to you know launch an L2 do a little bit of a Ponzi game you know with an airdrop get get this like rotation going and it works tremendously well in the bull market ultimately it is good for eth as an asset you know there's just like more activity more eth being burned and like it's kind of like the common Community money that I talked about last time as a percentage of eth market cap all of l2s you know can do quite well in a bull market Market um

like Michael said like you know there is like a bit of a the beta component I I would describe it as like these coins are not as liquid as eth and so like an inflow of money even if it's proportional even if it's like you know 30% of the eth money goes to l2s it'll just move them more so like you you can get these like outsize moves right um on the other hand uh I agree with Anthony like not all of these are going to establish a mode for themselves and be relevant in you know some years and the other thing that I talk about

all the time when I'm discussing value of coins is unlocks are very important like if you have like monthly unlocks forever andever and it's just like you know somebody has to keep buying the new coins um it can get absorbed pretty well in in a bull market but um maybe not in a bare market so what's that Warren Buffett saying like you know it's better to instead of owning a great company at a you know a too high valuation it's better to you know just own an okay company at like a very low valuation so valuation matters as as well and some of the valuations that we're seeing um you

know were were recording like uh at a period where like Stark might launch you know it's some very high valuation um we're seeing you know arbitrum obviously already quite high so just depends where you're getting in certainly and you brought up arbit from at the very end there when Ryan and I have talked about just like the business model of layer 2os um we've talked about it in a sense that like layer 2os have this extremely amazing property in which that they don't have to pay for for security and so it's basically they're just you know they just take ethereum block space they

mark it up and then they they distribute it and they sell it um at a premium but they spread it out amongst many many users and from the perception of the users it's very very cheap uh and uh this has been proved out in spectacular fashion I would say by like the arbitrum uh treasury you can just see eth flowing into that thing and then you see arbitrum the network buying layer one block space and it just not spending that much on layer one block space and taking in a huge amount of Revenue into their treasury on chain that you can witness on the arbitrum uh chain and

this has always been like our articulation for just like the you know layer twos uh just you can just do a DCF model on them and that is their business model but also I would be remiss to say that like perfect thought about fundamentals shows up in layer 2 token prices there's a bunch of other variables in crypto uh Much More Much More ghost in the wires about how things become valued Mike how much does this like fundament analysis actually do you think is important and and what else would you want to add on to any sort of

like qualitative analysis of like how to value a token yeah I had some thoughts I actually just wanted to respond to both what Anthony and Jordy said because I'm I'm in pretty violent agreement there and the way that I would describe this is I think there's going to be a barbell of what happens in the L2 landscape and this is kind of what I was trying to maybe describe before not so eloquently is I think there are going there's going to be some degree of network effects depending on where the eth flows from main chain so right now one of the problems that we've talked about on this podcast and that gets talked about quite a lot on Twitter is kind of the fragmentation of liquidity in the L2

landscape I think that's eventually going to be fixed but it's going to take a little bit of time to get fixed so basically the l2s that end up acre the most amount of liquidity are going to have a big advantage in the meantime so honestly my mental model for the way the L2 landscape is going to play out is kind of this barbell of looks like optimism and eth are going to be around for a long time and then I think there's going to be another smaller subset of l2s that do sort of clever tricks to acquire not tricks has a negative connotation like clever strategies um to

acquire some of that eth like blast regardless of what you think about it I not Financial advice I have no perspective on the mechanism or whatever but I they've done something pretty clever to attract a bunch of l2s or a bunch of eth um okay so you're kind of saying um we are more winners are more entrenched than maybe people think or at least there is a process of entrenchment of Layer Two Chains with a bunch of eth is that what you're saying yeah yeah I am because I think the way that it's going to work is a bunch of eth is going to flow up to these sorts of winners and

that's going to lead to more liquidity um on exchanges on those platforms on the barend parts of those platforms like if you want to Mint nfts on those platforms it's just going to be a massive Advantage for a whole bunch of the financial use case that L l2s have today and I think if you're in this sort of messy middle of layer twos where you know you don't offer something particularly special like yield um or some of the stuff that mantle is Jord is doing with mantle like you're just going to be like well why aren't I doing this on optimism arbitrum or mantle or blast or something like that so I think there

is going to be a hollowing out of the middle of l2s which this sounds a little bar but I think that's actually a positive because it's going to solve some of that fragmentation that we all feel in the meantime um I also think the fragmentation gets solved with non-financial use cases like blast or uh uh sorry farcaster is a really good example of that like go on warp cast and tell me that L2 is a fragmented like that wouldn't even make sense right you're just using a social app but in terms of the the valuation and some of the issuing stuff I agree with you David I think cost is is a major thing but

maybe just let me poke at that for for a second and uh give you some push back which would be this kind of reminds me of the the software business model where they really optimize for gross margins but then if you look at the net margin what they end up doing is they end up spending all of that all of that additional stuff on sales and marketing and I think if you actually looked at the issuance of some of the major l2s like arbitrum or optimism you'd see that their issuance doesn't look particularly good um in the short term right like op spent a lot of their token Supply on uh

getting base on there like if you look at arbitrum there's kind of this endless wave of short-term incentive programs the step uh long-term incentive programs and issuance actually doesn't really look particularly great on the l2s and I think the way that I would thread that needle is there's uh there's less spend on security um but they end up making up in this kind of like Knife Fight for developers and users and and you're doing something there Mike you're you're kind of redefining issuance is sort of like um unlocks as well which which

certainly in the in the in the short term uh is a major factor with respect to like outflows and sales uh of the asset right so like you could Define issuance is like net inflation and most of these chains do not have uh most of these layer TW do not have inflationary properties at least the total Supply is not increasing but but you're saying that's immaterial because in the in the short run all of you have all of these unlocks you have all of this token spending you have these treasuries funding various grants and the market

has to absorb that in some way that that's sort of what you mean right exactly I'm not sure it really matters from the perspective of the token whether or not you're paying uh your native token out to a validator uh who then turns arounds and sells it after some period of time or to an application or something like that who would then take that as a grant and then dump it on the market in some period of time too so I think it Nets out to be basically the same what do you think about this Anthony yeah I mean I I totally agree with that I think you know I mentioned before the VC kind of unlocks but that's yeah only one part of it right these kind of layer twos have these treasuries

where they give out grants and things like that I mean optimism has their retroactive public goods funding thing which they give out to you know they give out a huge amount of op to people and and as Mike mentioned abum has their stip thing and they've all got incentives and things like that I mean it's just the Classic bootstrapping mechanism for a network right I mean layer 1es do this by having well traditionally they did the proof of work layer 1es they would have like huge issuance at the start right Bitcoin had huge issu at the start ethereum had huge issuance at the start in order to attract miners essentially to the network right and you know these a lot

of these other layer one proof of stake networks do the same thing just W you know with proof of stake instead of proof of work where they kind of front the the massive issuance and then over time will reduce it as fee Revenue picks up and kind of makes up for that but as we've seen you know the vast majority of these networks have never been able to do that right they've never been able to actually get real demand into their product that they're selling which you know with the layer ones is block space but the same applies to layer 2os right they have to be able to sell enough block space and you know make enough money that that way uh so that they can

become self- sustaining and attract enough liquidity as well so they don't have to keep paying out these incentives to do it because we saw the same thing play out in defi summer back in 2020 a lot of incentives paid out very few apps made it out of that and actually were long-term sustainable right A lot of it was just wasted money I think so yeah I I totally agree with that um but Al also on the um these tokens uh the the the tokens themselves just from a pure kind of like valuation uh perspective outside of anything fundamental I think that uh they're very similar to layer one tokens in that they have what I like to call a

shelling point premium and what I mean by this is that they are tied to a generalized Network and when people think about what to buy say you're like oh I want to you know get exposure to optimism you know what are you going to buy what you going to buy op right you're not going to buy any of the app tokens on optimism if you want to get broad exposure to optimism you you buy op if you want to get broad exposure to arbitrum you buy ab and optimism even has the Bas um tied to it so it's like I want to I want to exposure to Bass I'll go buy op right uh same with the layer ones oh I want exposure to ethereum I buy eth so on and so forth um and that's

why you see such large valuations on these layer ones and layer twos compared to the the apps because the apps have a very specific narrow kind of defined thing whereas these platforms can be anything you can be like oh I can get exposure to everything by buying this and it's not really based on kind of I guess the fundamentals as we think about it like you can't do a DCF on this or anything like that but it's more based on like how many people want to buy it like the network effect really of the of that that asset and I think that that's why the layer ones like some of them that have been dead dead for a long time and they exist as basically zombies they still have a high market cap because

people still buy them as like you like oh if this layer one kind of takes off I can just buy the native asset and I'll have exposure to everything I don't have to kind of go into anything else um and and I think the same thing's going to play out with some of these l2s uh but isn't that a little bit like lazy logic I mean I agree with you that that's working and it's been working for years and it seems to keep working ongoing but like yeah when you look when you think about the proof of work and I don't mean this in the Bitcoin sense I mean the proof of like building a good product it seems a lot harder to build like a worldclass application that you know is going to be used by like you hundreds of

millions of people than just like spinning up another you know L2 or L1 and you know changing tweaking a couple things it doesn't so it seems like people are just being lazy and it's more like they're they're using the token as a trading instrument rather than like um you know a fundamental valuation of you know as an equity what what would this be worth I agree it's it's kind of like a shelling Point almost and I think it's just the reflection of the current market participants in crypto right like you know most Market participants in crypto are retail and they're not buying like

they like to go down the risk curve right and they like to buy these like to Shield the narratives around these things and I guess I'm just describing the current state of things and what it's been for actually a very long time as you mentioned so I think that uh Ethan BTC may be graduating above that with the ETFs but the rest of the stuff is not the rest of the stuff is still predominantly traded by these retail and then you have these people who call themselves institutions who just trade like retail anyway because they know that it's a good game to play right so I I think that that it plays a huge part in a lot of these valuations because if you look at you mentioned the high

valuations of like these layer twos right now like you actually do a DCF on them right now and yeah they I mean Mike mentioned they're losing money on paper right massive at bleeding money on paper and they shouldn't be worth what they're worth but I think bull market things obviously but also that kind of like you know shelling point premium too I'll just buy that because it's it's a lazy thing and most people want to be lazy about it like I'll just buy that don't have to think too hard about it and that's why things like mem coins are popular too oh you know I like a meme coin because it's just easy to buy oh there's a dog with a hat on it I'll buy that cool you know so there's a lot of

that going on and that's why we see these absurd valuations but I think again longterm that that kind of reality sets in the narratives can only get you so far longterm the reality sets in and then the smarter players are like well I'm not going to hold this in a bare Market I'm not going to hold this when demand is I know what's going to happen to these thing and then that's why we say these things obviously bed out well it's interesting because we say uh they shouldn't be worth what they're worth right and jordy's made comments about that Anthony You' made comments about that right but like it's kind of the question of relative to what so you know you look at the charge from a fully diluted valuation perspective and salana

is 3x the a fully diluted valuation of arbitrum which is the next closest Layer Two it's not just salana so so and I'm going to skip xrp because we know that's peculiar BNB right uh 54 million fully diluted valuation versus you know polygon's uh 10 billion fully diluted valuation you've got cardano which is uh still ahead of it there was kind of a question of uh relative to what and you could make the case on on either side right you could make the case that well compared to um some of these layer ones layer twos are cheap look at arbitrum it

has more um you know total locked value has more traction you you could argue that based on various metrics or you could make the case that these layer twos are maybe overvalued and the market is getting frothy and ahead of itself one formulation of this that I want to throw by the panel is is basically I've heard people say that layer two tokens are quote unquote worthless governance tokens worthless governance tokens okay there's some sort of maybe um uh like call on what's in the treasury sort of

but like we've seen the futility of of governance and can't the core team kind of take it away and they're not even um they don't even get sequencer revenues necessarily it's all very murky Jordy what's your reaction to that statement that layer 2 tokens are nothing but worthless governance tokens yeah I mean like I said you know it's a caseby casee situation there's multiple categories of layers too like things like op AR ZK think they're ultimately trying to build an ecosystem that will be tracting other uh layer 2os

and kind of build like super chains and you know you have a shared sequencers or you what polygon's trying to do like there's people trying to build this infrastructure layer like a like a middle layer above ethereum and before like you get to like the application layer where you know people are deploying directly and some will win that game and that will be a huge game and I understand that there's like a premium for those who seem to be doing really well obviously like op has a head start in the sense of it's very ethereum aligned and it's like the default like

if you want neutrality if you're Bas or something like that you know you just kind of go with OP uh you know mantle is kind of looking at op is like this neutral layer as well and maybe there's better technology if you go to the ZK path I me you know there's like teams that are potentially going to be able to attract layer twos in their ecosystem over there that might have you know much you know better user experience right with like better finality bridging out is a lot faster all this kind of stuff so that's one category and then there's

like the category that I've been working on I guess personally which is just trying to actually build product that people are actually using and like I'm not kind of you know so fussed with middle layers and trying to get other people to build stuff I'm just looking at like the end consumer and what do they want to use what Financial products they want to use can I give them better yield than anywhere else and like we're seeing that applications can be very valuable they can get you know even on the gaming side this is kind of a little bit crazy like I don't know if you guys have talked to any gaming teams that are raising money but they're just getting

bit up by like you know mutable giving them x million and they're getting 5 million over and it's just crazy and actually I don't mind it because it kind of shows that to be relevant these ecosystems do need to attract like viral you know use cases and it could just be culture it could be like nft collections it could be something you know culture based I think culture is extremely under uh understood how important it is I mean you talked about you know cardano stuff like that that's probably like a culture built around you know maybe one person

or you know one one concept and kind of it is valuable um so I I have been thinking a lot about culture and I think culture will capture a lot of value and the thing I love about ethereum as an asset as we talked about last time where I've been so bullish is more like the cultural Community aspect rather than you know is it like necessarily earning so much in burnt fees or something okay so Jordy you described a couple approaches Janes are taking some are you know trying to become platforms it's called call them platform type chains right others are trying to focus on the

apps and actually the consumer side of it others are trying to really develop um some sort of culture some sort of mimetic uh relevance let's say but none of that still answers the question as to whether the underlying token is value like is the token a claim on all of those things we seem somewhat confused about that we're not even sure that Unis swap that the uni token is sort of a claim on the success overall success of Unis swap at this uh you know phase in time I I I'm not sure if we should be thinking of these as Network Equity equities or are these still just like

worthless governance tokens talk to me about that inside like story on this in a bare Market everyone's thinking about like cash flow and showing like you know a good PE ratio in a bull market it just all goes out the window it goes about like getting attention getting tvl unfortunately and then you know the bare Market will go back to to that but you look at something like Lio and like the revenue from Lio is not that high even though it's it's by far the largest tvl all of crypto right it's like as an you know you look at the defi llama charts it's kind of way off there but the