Celestia’s Building the Multi-Chain Universe with Nick White | Alpha Leak

what, celestia, enables, again, is experiment, more, experimentation, like it'll, be, it'll, increase, the, speed, at which, people, can, spin, up, new, blockchains and, try, new, things, and, experiment, which i, think, will, overall, increase, the, amount of, innovation, in, the, space hey, banquets, nation, welcome, to, this edition, of, alpha, league, alpha, link, is actually, just, meet, the, nation, rebranded into, a, little, bit, more, of, an, exciting name, so, this, is, where, we, go, and, dive deep, into, various, projects, that, catch, my attention, around, in, the, crypto, sphere

today, we, are, talking, to, nick, white, from celestia, and, celestia, is, a, layer, one blockchain that's, living, inside, of, the, modular blockchain, paradigm so, celestia, and, all, the, people, behind, it i, think, are, just, uh, very, committed, to this, whole, modular, blockchain, thesis which, both, me, and, ryan, are, definitely aligned, on, we, think, that, the, long-term conclusion, of, this, cryptocurrency, space however, it, may, be, will, be, modular ethereum, or, if, or, a, different, shame, like perhaps, celestia, so, let, it, be, known, that

we, are, not, ethmaxis, uh, we're, actually modular, blockchain, maxies, which, is, why we're, talking, to, nick, from, the, celestia team, here, today i've, already, kind, of, given, the, pitch, for celestia, it's, a, it's, even, more, modular than, ethereum, is, in, its, current, shape and, so, nick, does, a, fantastic, job, walking us, all, the, way, through the design, architecture, of, celestia, its differences, and, similarities, to, ethereum what, it's, optimized, for, how, it's, going to, do, cross-chain, multi-chain, stuff how, consensus, works

all, of, that, deals, so, it's, relatively technical, of, a, show but, if, you, are, here, to, learn, about celestia, this, is, going, to, be, the, perfect show, for, you and, so, let's, go, ahead, and, get, right, into this, alpha, league, episode, with, nick white, of, celestia, right, after, we, talk about, some, of these, fantastic, sponsors that, make, the, show, possible, living, a bankless, life, requires, taking, control over, your, own, private, keys, and, that's why, so, many, in, the, bank, list, nation already, have, their, ledger, hardware wallet, and, brand, new, to, the, ledger lineup, of, hardware, wallets, is, the, ledger nano, s, plus, a, huge, upgrade, to, the world's, most, popular, hardware, wallet

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build, on, the, polygon, ecosystem, go, to, the link, in, the, show, notes, to, check, out their, fantastic, documentation, and, if you're, a, user, who, just, wants, to experience, fast, and, cheap, defy, you, can bridge, over, your, eth, or, other, tokens, and start, playing, around, with, any, of, the thousands, of, applications, that, are available, on, polygon all, right, bangla, station, i'm, here, with nick, white, who, is, the, ceo, of, celestia labs, nick, welcome, to, the, show, i'm excited, to, get, into, everything, about celestia, today thanks, david, excited, to, be, here so, let's, go, ahead, and, dive, right, in, i think, bankless, listeners, will, already, be

familiar, with, the, modular, blockchain thesis, and, so, this, is, kind, of, where, that conversation, starts, nick, what, is celestia, at, the, highest, level celestia, is, the, first, modular, blockchain network so, it, kind, of, was, the, the, origin, of, this modular, blockchain, paradigm, in, which, you separate, the, two, core, functions, of, what typical, monolithic, blockchains, that's bitcoin, ethereum, well, the, original ethereum, and, salon, and, all, the, other, l1s do, which, is, consensus and, execution

so, basically, celestia's, core, insight, is that, you, can split, those, two, functions, apart into, separate, layers and, so, celestia, focuses, on, the, consensus part, so, it's, the, consensus, and, data availability, layer, so, data, availability is, another, topic, that, we, can, dive, into but, basically, it's, another, core primitive, that, is, crucial, for, building you, know, decentralized, applications okay, so, i, think, we, should, probably, start with, like, definitions, and, mental, models and, just, to, allow, the, listeners, to, get up, to, speed, splitting, the, blockchain between, execution, and, consensus, let's

dive, into, each, one, of, those, uh, and, we'll take, them, apart, separately, uh, consensus what, are, we, talking, about, this, proof, of work, proves, the, stake, what, are, we talking, about, with, the, consensus, side, of a, blockchain yeah, so, consensus, is, basically the, mechanism, by, which, you, all, the participants, in, the, network, agree on, the, order, of, transactions so, when, like, a, block, for, example, has consensus, on, it, that, means, that, it's, now placed, in, a, certain, order, among, all, the other, blocks, so, once, a, block, has consensus, in, theory, it, should, never, be

reorganized, like, it, should, always, be, in that, place, like, that, that, that, block height, essentially, and, all, the transactions, in, that, block, are, now ordered, so, with, that like, once, you, have, consensus every, network, has, the, same, view, of reality, everyone, has, the, same, view, of history, of, events, so, that's, that's, like how, you, prevent, things, like, double, spend like, that's, how, you, know basically, what what, has, happened one, single, shared, source, of, truth, that doesn't, have, active, the, blockchain, is not, forked, there, are, two, competing versions, of, the, truth, there's, everyone

exactly, come, to, terms, on, the, same protocol, the, same, data, and, everyone, has strong, assurances, that, they, are uh, on, the, same, page, as, everyone, else exactly, everyone's, looking, at, the, same thing, everyone's, in, agreement, like, this is, the, reality, this, is, the, canonical chain cool, all, right, okay, so, that's, consensus and, then, execution, let's, get, if, you could, just, divine, execution, for, the listeners, yeah, so, execution, is, perhaps the, more, interesting, part, of, it, right execution, is, where those, transactions, that, history, gets interpreted

right, so, there's, there's, something, that you, call, a, state, transition, function which, basically, defines, you, know, this, is like, how, you, interpret, a, transaction, and this, is, like, how, what, the, effect, of, that transaction, is, so, for, example, in, bitcoin you, know, the, state, machine, is, pretty simple, it's, just, basically, like, okay well, this, is, this, uh, person, this, that's signing, this, actually, have, the, right, to spend, this, utxo, and, if, so, then, like we'll, move, the, balance, to, this, new, uh address, essentially, but, in, you, know

ethereum, obviously, got, way, more interesting, where, we, have, a, full, you know, turing, complete, uh, sort, of, like, vm as, the, state, transition, function, so that's, like, how applications, are, born, is, basically, like okay, now, this, transaction, interacts, with a, smart, contract, and, it, executes, this trade, or, you, know, it, votes, on, this, like governance, proposal, or, whatever, it, is basically, um, execution, is, where you, know, the, the, activity, is, like without, execution, there's, really, no point, you, just, basically, have, this ledger, but, there's, no, like, you, know

effect, of, that, ledger, so, execution, is, is like, applications, smart, contracts, and all, the, stuff, that, end, users, end, up interacting, with correct, me, if, i'm, wrong, but, execution another, way, to, explain, execution, is, just like, uh, execution, is, what, goes, from, like block, one, to, block, one, plus, or, block, n as, in, any, number, uh, to, n, plus, one, right it's, the, plus, it's, the, plus, side, of, that part, because, we, have, to, actually, make changes, and, when, we, say, we're, making changes, to, those, ledgers, we, actually have, to, execute, changes, uh, and, yeah, kind

of, like, how, you, said, with, bitcoin, the math, the, math, for, bitcoin, is, very, simple it's, just, basically, checks, the, balance of, the, sending, address, and, then, if, the balance, is, larger, than, the, amount, that's being, sent, then, it, says, yes execute, that, and, then, like, you, said, with ethereum, we're, getting, into, code, uh, the vm, is, a, virtual, machine, but, basically it's, just, computation, at, this, point, and it's, just, like, a, bunch, of, smart contracts, or, just, a, bunch, of, rules, to execute, upon, and, that's, and, if, you follow, the, rules, and, it, gets, verified, by all, the, node, operators, you're, allowed, to

go, from, block, n, to, n, plus, one and, that's, execution, uh, and, so previously, and, and, mostly, still, actually we're, in, this paradigm, where, both, consensus, and execution, are, done, by, the, same, parties uh, and, i, think, the, modular, blockchain thesis, is, that, we, actually, can, separate out, those, two, parties, into, two, different into, two, different, groups, and, allow these, resources, to, be, managed, separately how, does, um, where, does, the, conversation with, celestia, begin, how, how, what, how

does, celestia, actually, modulize, these things yeah, that's, a, really, good, question, but, i i, want, to, i, guess, like, double uh, tap, into, this, concept, of, separating, i like, the, execution, and, the, state, being updated, because, in, a, typical, blockchain what, happens, is, every, time, there's, a, new block right, it, doesn't, just, contain, the transactions, in, that, block, there's, also what, you, call, a, state, route, which, is basically, a, commitment, to these, transactions, that, i'm, including this, is, the, new, state, that, they, create and, so, both, of, those, things, every, time, a new, block, is, mined, in, a, monolithic, chain

both, the, transactions, and, the, new, state are, included, in, that, block, so, in celestia like, basically all, it, is, it's, it, well, the, original paper, that, kind, of, inspired, the, project was, called, lazy, ledger, and, the, reason, it was, called, lazyledger, is, because celestia, is, a, lazy, blockchain, so, it, does less, it, actually, doesn't, even, interpret it, doesn't, even, look, at, the, transaction data, that, people, are, dumping, into, it, it just, mercalizes, it, and, it, has, a, special kind, of, scheme, of, of, building, the, block

that enables, something, called, data availability, sampling, which, makes, it really, really, scalable, because, one, of the, one, of, the, reasons, that, you, there are, a few, different, reasons, why, you, want to, separate, consensus, from, execution, so the, first, one, is, that you, know, in, a blockchain, where, it's, monolithic, there is, only, really, one state, transition, function, that, you, can implement, so, you, can, either, you, know stuck, with, bitcoin, like, you, can't, run like, the, evm, on, the, bitcoin, blockchain right, but, also, like, you, know, on, on

ethereum, you, can, only, really uh, interact, with, ethereum uh, through, the, evm, right, there, the ethereum, blockchain, doesn't, run, other forms, of, execution, so, by, separating those, two, things, you, can, actually, have, a blockchain, where, the, execution, like, you can, define, different, kinds, of, execution environments, so, you're, not, just, locked into, the, evm, or, let's, say, salona, c, level like, you, can, define, that, after, the, fact on, layer, two, so, that's, that's, one, of the big, ones, the, other, big, one is, that, you, get, more, scalability, and

that's, kind, of, where, this, whole, data availability, problem, uh, comes, in okay, yeah, so, we'll, take, those, one, one, at a, time, we'll, we'll, get, into, the, data availability, availability, part, later, i want, to, go, back, to, the, execution, side, so the, evm, is, ethereum's, execution environment, right right, so, like, that, that's, the, execution environment, is, like, this, is, where, the execution, happens, it's, all, the transactions, are, contained, inside, the evm, and, what, you're, saying, is, that celestia allows, that, part, to, be, swapped, in, or, out for, any, other, execution, environment

would, it, be, fair, to, say, that, every single, blockchain has, to, have, an, execution, environment, in it, somewhere, like, it, has, to, have execution, and, so, celestia, allows, you, to pick, and, choose what, your, execution, environment, is, is this, am, i, using, the, right, words yeah, exactly, so, i, mean, you, could, even think, of, you, know, i, mean, i guess, i wouldn't, call, i, wouldn't, call, bitcoin state, transition, function, necessarily, an execution, environment, because, that execution, environment, kind, of, implies that, there's, sort, of, like computation, sort, of, like, rich, stateful kind, of, like, like, like, the, evm, like, a

train, complete, like, programming environment, um, but, yeah, basically the, execution, environment, is, exactly what, you, said, um, and, so, yeah, celestia frees, up, developers, it, makes, it, more flexible, right, because, now, let's, say either, it, could, be, as, simple, as, like actually, i, do, want, to, build, an, evm, but, i actually, want, to, add, in, a, new, uh pre-compile, or, i, want, to, remove, this, one function, like, for, example, like self-destruct, which, can, can, cause, a, lot of, problems, and, and, and, make, things, more difficult, you, could, you, could, actually use, the, avm, but, just, you, know, make, some

small, modifications, for, your, application so, it, could, be, better, for, dfi, or, nfts, or you, can, just, completely, experiment, like i, i, actually, believe, in, the, celestia team, believes, that innovation, in, execution, environments, has been, held, back, in, blockchain artificially, because of, this, sort, of, monolithic, paradigm, the fact, that, if, i, wanted, to, build, a, new experiment, with, a, new, execution environment, i, had, to, build, an, entirely new, blockchain, right, and, that, the bootstrapping, cost, of, doing, that, is, so high, that, it's, kind, of, prevented, people from

trying, things, out, so, in, the, same, way like, before, ethereum, there's, actually, a lot, of, parallels, here, so, before, ethereum you, know, bitcoin, proved, that, you, could build, a, decentralized, application, for the, first, time, so, people, are, like, oh this, is, so, cool, we, could, do, lots, of stuff but because, there, was, no, general, purpose blockchain, every, time, you, wanted, to build, a, new, decentralized, application you, had, to, spin, up, an, entirely, new blockchain but, then, when, ethereum, came, along, and said, hey, we're, going, to, build, a, general purpose, blockchain, on, which, you, can build, a, decentralized, application without, building, a, new, blockchain, so

celestia, takes, that, one, step, further, and makes, it, so, that, you, can, do, the, same thing, but, for, the, execution, environment itself, so, i, can, build, a, new, blockchain for, all, intents, and, purposes, without actually, building, a, new, consensus network, so, that's, that's, really, like, the key, part, there okay, i, really, like, that, that, tells, a great, story, so, first, we, have, bitcoin, and we, have, the, first, decentralized application, on, the, internet, and, then like, oh, cool, we, have, the, the, it's, like on, the, uh, on, the spectrum, of, dimensions, we're, at, like, 1d right, like, we're, a, dot, it's, like, we, can

we, have, like, this, one, thing, hello, world which, is, said, yeah, hello, world, we, can send, bitcoins, around, that's, all, we, got and, then, ethereum, was, like, all, right well, we, can, either, make, more, blockchains and, make, more, dots, or, we, can, or, we, can have, a grow, in, a, whole, entire, different dimension, and, just, allow, any, blockchain to, have, any, application, and, that, is, the what, and, so, we, added, a, an, evm, to, bitcoin right, and, created, ethereum, right, we added, an, execution, environment, to bitcoin, and, then, instead, of, having, to

make, many, many, many, dots, we, go, from, a dot, to, a, line, uh, and, so, what, you're saying, with, celestia, is, that, you, uh, buy but, then, but, then, uh, ethereum's constraint, is, the, evm, so, where, bitcoin's constraint, was, that, it, can, only, move, the bitcoins, around, ethereum, is, constrained it, is, constrained, by, it, uh, can, only do, stuff, in, d5, inside, of, the, evm, and then, celestia, is, saying, like, okay, we, can go, from, a, line, to, a, three-dimensional shape, 3d, and, by, saying, like, well, we, can

remove, the, constraint, of, the, evm, and allow, for, any, execution, environment, to come, and, exist, on, celestia, is, this, right exactly, yeah, exactly, it's, almost, like you, know, the, evm only, speaks, one, language, and, then, a modular, chain, like, celestia, is multilingual, like, you, can, you, can, load any, language, and, speak, any, language, that you, choose i, love, that so, how, though, you, say, okay, you, said, load any, language, my, next, question, was so, ethereum, uses, the, evm, because, like that's, just, the, language, that, it, uses and, it, enforces

it, checks, all, of, the, rules, of, the, blocks using, the, evm, like, the, evm, is, the, police it's, the, enforcement, of, the, chain, it checks, all, the, rules, how, does, if, if celestia, is, completely, modular, with, this execution, environment, how, does, it, know what, rules, to, check that's, a, really, really, good, question, and that, is, where, layer, two, constructions like, roll-ups, come, in, so, basically, what what, roll-ups, are, and, what, l2s, are, is, a way, in, which, you, enforce so, like, let's, let's, take, a, step, back like, whenever, a

on, a, monolithic, chain whenever, transactions or, a, new, block, are, mined they, are, made, sure, that, they're, valid first, and, foremost, by, the, miners, or, the the, validators, like, the, proof, of, stake validators, right, so, that's one, way, in, theory, everyone, wants, a, full node, and, they, they, re-verify, for themselves, but, also, the, the, miners, are the, ones, enforcing, the, validity, right now, in, celestia anyone, can, submit, a, transaction, and, the transaction, doesn't, even, need, to, be valid, because, in, celestia's, eyes, there's no, such, thing, as, a, valid, or, invalid

transaction, it's, all, just, data so, but, then, that, of, course, leads, to, your question, so, how, do, you, determine, what, a valid, transaction, is, or, who, is, enforcing the, execution, the, validity, of, the, state transitions, that, are, happening, on celestia, and, so, the, answer, that, is, l2 construction, so, roll-ups, are, a, really new, uh, and, interesting, technology, that basically, make, it, possible, for um someone, to, trust not, without, having, to, re-execute transactions, or, re-execute, a, block, to

know, that, that, block, is, valid, so in, short, it's, it's, either, a, validity proof, which, is, where, zero, knowledge roll-ups, uh, sort, of, how, they, enforce validity, or, it's, a, fraud, proof, which, is basically, how, optimistic, roll-ups, um enforce, the, validity, of, blocks, and transactions so, when, we, say, that, celestia, is, modular in, terms, of, its, like, execution, like, you can, put, any, execution, environment, on, top of, celestia, are, we, really, talking, about like, the, layer, twos, are, the, actual modular, component, of, the, execution

environment, as, in, like, this, layer, two uses, the, evm, and, this, layer, two, uses starkware's, cairo, or, whatever, and, so that's, the, actual, part, that, is, modular yeah, exactly, so, you, can, kind, of, think you, know what, we're, doing, is, we're, decomposing the, typical, monolithic, blockchain, into components, so celestia, is, the, the, sort, of, base, level component, sort, of, like, the, l1, component which, is, consensus, which, orders, the, data and, data, availability

and, then, the, other, component, the execution, layer, component, is, the, rollups so, when, i, say, any, execution, or, you, can run, any, execution, environment, what, i mean, is, that, there's, no, like, the roll-ups, themselves, define, their, own execution, that, they, run, on, top, of celestia okay, and, then, we, when, you, said, that celestia, doesn't, isn't, aware, of, anything like, an, invalid, or, invalid, transaction that's, because, it, just is, a, place, for, the, data, of, the, roll-up to, be, uh, deposited, into, like, the, data

celestia, just, receives, the, data, from, the roll-up yeah, exactly, so, maybe, we, should, go, a little, bit, deeper, into, how, roll-ups, work so, basically, a, roll-up, is for, most, intensive, purposes, just, like actually, a, blockchain, so, it's, this almost, analogous, to, a, normal, blockchain where, but, instead, of, having, a, validator set and, instead, of, like, doing, their, own consensus there, there, are, roll-up, operators, and they, so, they, collect, transactions, from all, the, users, they, put, roll, them, up, into

a, block, they, basically, create, a, block and, they, they uh, compute, what, the, next, state, is so, that, they, do, the, like, the, validation of, that, block, and, then, they, post, that block onto, another, blockchain, that, is, actually doing, the, consensus, and, also, data availability, so, um, i, guess, like, the, the the, roll-up data uh, is, is, itself, like, its, own, block within, a, block, does, that, make, sense, and so, but, celestia, just, allows, anyone, to

post, data, there, so, we, don't, you, know, we don't, we're, not, aware i, mean, we're, aware, of, the, fact, that, the people, are, putting, data, there, but, we don't, actually, interpret, it, or, look, at it, we, don't, say, like, okay, this, you, know in, a, monolithic, chain if, i, if, i, try, to, send, an, invalid transaction, to, ethereum, it, never, ends, up on, the, chain, because, it's, it's, the, the miners, discard, it, they're, like, oh, well you, don't, have, the, right, to, you, know withdraw, this, money, or, to, spend, this money, or, whatever, so, it, never, goes, into the, chain, is, what, i'm, saying, is, that, in celestia's, case, there, is, no interpretation, there, is, no, valid, or

invalid, so, any, all, transactions, get posted, there so, how, do, all, the, rollups, then, have shared, state, and, assets, right, so, like that, with, ethereum, because, you, do, have like, the, invalid, or, valid, transactions right, like, it, also, has, like, native tokens, the, native, token, native, tokens, on the, layer, one, and, it, goes, from, one execution, environment, on, a, roll, up, down to, the, l1, and, then, across, the, l1, and, up to, a, different, roll, up how, can, you, how, does, celestia, manage

that, if, it, doesn't, have, any, rules, at, the l1, how, do, you, have, shared, state, between all, the, rollouts, really, really, good question, so actually, so, this, gets, into, so, we, already talked, about, the, consensus and, data, availability, layer, which, is let's, say, celestia um, and, the, execution, layer, which, is, a roll-up, there's, also, another, component that, i, think, will, be, very, important, in the, modular, blockchain, stack, and, that, is what, we, call, a, settlement, layer, so in, the, model, of, ethereum right an, ethereum, based, rollup, ethereum, acts as, the, consensus, layer, the, data

availability, layer, and, a, settlement layer and, then, the, ethereum, roll, ups, act, as execution, layers, and, so to, to, explain, a, bit, more, about, what, a settlement, layer, is it's, basically, a, coordination, mechanism between, different roll-ups, so, like, the, it's, like, a, bridge essentially, so the, when, you, when, you, deposit, an, asset from, ethereum, into, a, roll-up and, you're, bonding, it, into, like, a contract, at, the, l1, and, then, that contract, listens, for, the, state, updates

from, the, roll-up um, but, i, guess, like, the, the, the, good thing, about, a, settlement, layer, is, that if, it's, kind, of, like, in, a, multi-chain world, right, like, let's, talk, about, like cosmos, as, an, example, there, is, no, you know, people, thought, talked, about, cosmos hub, being, sort, of, the, central, spoke right, in, which, all, liquidity, can, pass, so rather, than, having, all, every, chain, talk to, every, other, chain in, a, very, very, like, you, know, chaotic kind, of, like, topology, there, would, be like, this, ordered, system, where, there's like, one, canonical, spot, that, everyone

kind, of, relays, to, to, get, between, each other, so, that's, kind, of, what, a settlement, layer, is, it's, sort, of, like this, bridge it, also, in, a, sense, custody's, assets, um and, it, helps, to, make, it, easier, for, those roll-ups, to, talk, to, each, other, but, you don't, actually, need, like, the, settlement layer, is, not, fundamental, to, the, security of, these, roll-ups, in, fact, you, know, these like, roll-ups, can, actually, have, uh bridges, with, each, other, directly, they don't, have, to, go, through, for, example, the ethereum, as, a, settlement, layer

it's, like, it's, like, a, nice, to, have, if that, makes, sense okay, okay, and, so, the, plan, for, like, an asset, on, roll, up, a, to, go, to, roll, up, b, if the, both, of, these, roll-ups, settle, on celestia, is, to it's, up, to, their, own it's, up, to, those, two, roll-ups, to establish, communication, between, them rather, than, having, to, rely, on, on celestia, as, the, settlement, layer yeah, basically, so, well, i, think, the, way to, think, about, it, is, that, celestia doesn't, enshrine a, settlement, layer, so, like, an, ethereum, i

mean, it's, debatable, if, you, would, call like, the, ethereum, like, l1, evm, an enshrined, settlement, layer, because rollups, on, ethereum, can, also, just connect, to, each, other, um they're, on, their, own, independently, of that, but in, celestia, there, is, no, enshrined sediment, layer, but, you, can, build, a settlement, layer, on, top, of, celestia, as, a rollup, so, like, settlement, assignment layer, is basically, just, a, special, case, of, an execution, layer, it's, an, execution, layer that's, just, it's, not, really, meant, to, do

any, fancy, kind, of, execution, it's, just meant, to verify, state, transitions, of, other rollups, and, kind, of, like, you, know facilitate, the, movement, of, funds, between places what, would, you, say, is, the, advantage, of that, design, structure the, advantage, is, basically that, um, to, me, you, kind, of, have, well there's, a, few, so, one, is as, we, just, as, we, talked, about, like it, adds, order, like, we, have, we, imagine, a world, where, you, know, it's, not, just, you know, hundreds, of, blockchains, not, just

thousands, but, in, the, future, long-term future, millions, of, blockchains, right, and when, you, have, that level, of, complexity, and, emergence, you you're, gonna, need, some, more, some organization, and, so, i, think, settlement layers act, as like, a, way, in, which, like, coordination mechanisms, between, all, these, different state, spaces, so, that, they, can, easily route, funds, to, each, other, like, rather than, you, know me, having, to, create, you, know, run, like 100, clients, to, all, the, different, other chains, that, i, want, to, talk, to, i, just, run

one, client, to, the, the, settlement, layer and, every, other, chain that, is, connected, to, that, settlement layer, is, also, just, one, hop, away, so, it's almost, like, a, kind, of, like, a, i, don't know, like, a, network, kind, of, thing, like you you're, able, to, like, the, topography, of the, network, gets, it's, more, organized, the other, thing, that's, very, important is, that, fungibility, in, a, multi-chain world, becomes, really, challenging, because depending like, the, the, fungibility, of, an, asset, is path, dependent, so, it, depends, on how, you, bridged, like, let's, say, i, took, a

usdc, from, chain, a and, bridge, it, to, chain, b and, then, to, change, c that, uscc, is, actually, different, than, if i, took, it, from, chain, a, to, chain, d, and then, to, chain, c, so, like but, if, you, routed, it, through, a, common settlement, layer, that, usdc, then, can, if it, originates, at, the, same, settlement layer, then, it, becomes, fungible, across that, sort, of, like, universe, so, i, think that's, that's, a, really, important, feature for, for, settlement, and, also, actually last, the, last, point, about, why, solomon's

important, is, that um, if, i'm, running, a, client the, settlement, layer, verifies, the, state transitions, of, all, these, other, rollups so, if, i'm, a, user, and, i, don't, like, i, i want, to, have, i, want, to, be, trust minimized, i, want, to, like, make, sure, that all, the, um, the, state, of, all, the, the rollups, that, i'm, using, are, is, legit, like no, one's, like, pulling, a, fast, one, on, me which, is, key, to, decentralization, then, i instead, of, having, to, run, 100, clients, of all, every, different, rollup, i, could, just run, a, client, of, that, one, settlement

layer, and, that, sentiment, layer, will, tell me, the, state, of, all, these, other, rollups so, it, also, kind, of, reduces, the, amount, of overhead, that, i, need, to, verify, other chains, so, this, is, all, talking, about, the advantages, of, having, just, like, a, single shared, source, of, truth, right like, this, is, like, you, have, this, one place everyone, can, look, at, me, like, all, right here's, where, here's, what, the, state, is but, i'm, having, a, hard, time differentiating, that, between, like, that and, the, ethereum, l1, because, isn't, that also, what, the, ethereum, l1, does yeah, so, i, mean, like, the, ethereum, l1, i

think, in, this, model, um is, a, settlement, layer, in, the, sense, but the, thing, is, so, why, okay, so, to, i, think maybe, you're, touching, on, two, things, why not, have, settlement, on, the, l1, itself uh, well, one, of, the, main, reasons, is, that the, settlement, layer, is, this it, actually, reduces it, makes, it, harder, to, make, that, layer one, truss, minimize, so, like, in, celestia we, have, made, the, l1 that, there, is, execution, on, the, l1, it, is

minimal, minimal, minimal, it, is, like bitcoin, it's, basically, just, sending, and receiving, funds, and, staking, them, that's it and, the, reason, that, we, did, that, is, that it, incurs, like, okay, so, if, i'm, a, roll, up and, i, want, to, use, an, l1, to, post, my, data there i, actually, have, to, take, an, interest, in the, validity, of, that, chain, for, my, own security, so, so, with, celestia, with minimal, execution, it, incurs, minimal overhead, on, the, roll-ups, that, use, it, if that, makes, sense, so, that, that's, like, i think, a, really, key, advantage, so

um, that's, why, we, have, chosen, to, remove as, much, execution, as, possible, from, l1 and, then, uh, there, was, another, point, on this, that, i i, wanted, to, talk, about, but, i'm, kind, of blanking, on, what, it, was, maybe, it'll, come back, to, me, yeah, probably, probably probably, will, when, you, said it'll, the, roll-up, will, have, the, minimum overhead when, it, posts, to, celestia, because celestia, has, reduced, it, minimize, the amount, of, execution, it, needs, to, do, at the, l1, is, this, related, to, like, gas, fees because, i, know, like, i, know, that, the ethereum, of, gas, fees, actually, does

impact, the, layer, two, gas, fees, uh, and, a large, part, of, that, is, because, there actually, is, computation, that, happens, at the, l1, that's, why, we, have, that's, why, i have, high, gas, prices, is, that, the, same conversation that's, part, of, it, although, if, you, um, you know, i, know, that, like for, example, in, the, new, ethereum, world map, as, i, understand, they're, they're going, to, actually, separate, fees, for, data availability, space, and, execution, on, like gas, basically, on, that, one, so, it's possible, to, do, that, but but, but, you're, right, that, like, it, it, it

doesn't, and, that's, why, ethereum, is, doing that, they, don't, want, to, conflate, these two, resources, so, this, is, like, this, topic of, resource, pricing, which um, john, adler uh, gave, a, talk, on, in, at, ecc, last, year which, basically, is, like you, know, and, this, is, part, of, the, modules of, blockchain, paradigm, is the, like, pricing there's, different, resources, that, need, to be, consumed, to, build, a, decentralized application one, resource, is, execution, like, you, know i, want, i, want, to, be in, the, chain, of, this, order, like, i, want

to, have, priority, right, of, my, transaction that's, a, that's, a, big, one, and, then another, one, is, just, straight, up, block space, like, i, want, to, be i, want, i, need, block, space, i, need, data, i need, data, to, be, made, available, so, those are, two, different, kind, of, resources, and in, celestia, it's, purely data, availability, that's, that, is, the resource, basically, that, we, are selling, or, providing as, a, service, and, then, the, the, layer, twos the, roll-ups, will, have, will, have, their own, probably, have, their, own, token, or their, own, fee, model, which, is, all, about