🎙️ The Altcoin Slayer | Eric Wall

welcome, to, bankless where, we, explore, the, frontier, of internet, money, and, internet, finance this, is, how, to, get, started, how, to, get better, and, how, to, front, run, the opportunity i'm, ryan, john, adams, i'm, here, with, david hoffman, and, we're, here to, help, you, become, more, bankless david, we, have, the, altcoin, slayer, on, the show eric, wall, how, was, that, conversation yeah, this, is, the, first, time, i've actually, gotten, able, to, talk, to, eric wall, and, he's, somebody, that's, really helped, me, formulate, mental, models, in this, space and, eric, wall, for, those, that, don't, know

very, very, prominent, in, 2017-2018 as, a, guy, that, seemed, to, go, against everyone's, grain, like, not, just, one particulars, community's, grains, but everyone's, grain uh, and, so, like, while, he's, a, big bitcoiner, he's, not, afraid, to, tell bitcoiners, when, they're, wrong and, while, he, was, never, really, uh, conv convinced, by, the, ethereum, crowd he, has, as, of, late, uh, talked, very positively, about, certain, merits, of ethereum's, construction but, then, we'll, also, go, ahead, and, say that, the, overall

ethereum, project, is, a, complete, mess, so this, guy thinks, for, himself, and, that's, kind, of why, we, got, him, on um, not, to, go, into, depths, about his, mental, models, and, the, way, that, he thinks, and, his, opinions, about, certain things, but, then, also as, an, exploration, into, the, way, that, he puts, thoughts, together inside, of, a, space, where, so, many, people are, telling, you, how, and, what, to, think eric, wall, thinks, for, himself, this, is bankless meets, tribelis, i, really, feel, like, eric wahl

strives, as, much, as, possible, not, to affiliate, himself, with, one particular, pattern, of, thought, or, one particular, tribe in, fact, i, think, early, on, he, he, very, much associated, himself at, with, uh, as, a, bitcoiner, like, very, much uh, put, the, the, mantle, of, that, tribe, on his, shoulders and, we, we, talked, about, almost, his, like ejection from, the, bitcoiner, sphere, by, by, the so-called, high, priest, and, what, that, what that, felt, like, it, was, almost, like, he, was excommunicated so, we, we, went, through, that, not, i, guess

maybe, the, through, line, here, is, we, have, a a, contrarian, thinker, a, tribeless individual and, what's, interesting, to, me, david, is, he is coming, to, some, of, the, same, conclusions that, we've, come, to as, part, of, the, the, bankless, platform some, different, ones but, also, many, of, the, same, conclusions but, he's, doing, it like, out, outside, of, uh the, ethereum, ecosystem's, influence, or the, bankless, ecosystem's, influence, he's almost, like, arriving, at, these, opinions

independently, and, uh, that that's, what, was, so, interesting, about, i think, this, podcast and, eric's, journey, and, his, story, it's just, the, way, he, thinks, but how, he, has, arrived, at, these, opinions it's, definitely, not, through group, think, and, through, like, tribe affiliation it's, like, when, he, says, it, you, know, that like he, actually, believes, it, in, that, moment not, to, say, he, doesn't, change, his, mind because, there, are, many, instances, where he, he's, admitted changing, his, mind, in, fact, you, know, the

the, tweet, that, got, him, on, the, show i, think, was, uh, he, said, in, 2020, he stopped, being, wrong, about, eth, those, are his, words, not, mine, he, stopped, being wrong, about, eve so, this, is, someone, who's, also, very willing, to, do, it, like, a, 180 when, he, sees, that, um, the, evidence, points in, a, different, direction, so, kind, of a, cool, thinker, somebody, we've, wanted, on the, podcast, for, a, while and, we, actually, written, down, a, rabbit hole, that, we, weren't, expecting, to towards, the, beginning, of, the, podcast where, we, get, to, talk, about, my, favorite

subject, of, like evolutionary, crypto, assets, not, planned yeah, what, is, it, like, biology, biology and, like, the, evolution, of, crypto networks, right, uh, i'm, i, have, a deep-seated, belief, that, the, best, way, to understand, this, industry is, through, a, biological, perspective, uh and, eric, wahl, shares, that, belief, and, we actually, kind, of, went, down, that, rabbit hole, earlier, in, the, podcast, and, i, think that's, going, to, be, a, new line, of, a, line, of, topic, on, the, bankless podcast, that, we, haven't, really, touched on, i'm, really, happy, that, we, were actually, able, to, touch, on, it

yeah, it's, kind, of, like, expect, the unexpected, in, this, podcast, right, at, the very, beginning, he, actually, called, me, out on, some, beef that, we've, had, previously, right, so, we just, enter, in on, that, conversation, so, overall, really fantastic, episode of, course, you, can, get, a, download, of david, and, mai's thoughts, in, the, debrief, episode, that, is available, for premium, subscribers, on, the, bankless premium feed, so, make, sure, you, check, that, out, too if, you, are, a, premium, subscriber and, with, that, david, let's, talk, about, the fantastic, sponsors, that, made, this

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think, that's, because, he, busts, through groupthink, he, isn't, afraid, to, change, his mind yet, he, manages, to, stay, extremely convicted, in, his, beliefs, at, the, same time, i, think, we're, going, to, learn a, lot, from, eric, in, this, podcast, eric welcome, to, bankless, how, are, you, doing today thank, you, so, much, ryan, um, kind, of surprised to, be, here, because, we've, had, this, uh you, and, me, we've, had, this, uh, ongoing spat, about, a, particular argument, that, we've, had, in, the, past about

how, to, correctly, apply, the, term trustless to, different, types, of, cryptocurrency systems and, because, of, our, inconsistencies, of opinions, there i've, i'm, a, principal, i'm, a, principled person, and, i, try, to, stick, to, my principles as, hard, as, i, can, and, one, of, my principles is, that, if, somebody, uses, terminology in, a, way, that, i, think, is, harmful, to, the overall, ecosystem then, you, know, i, cannot, prevent, people

from saying, what, they, say, but, i, can, at, least uh choose, who, i, engage, with, uh, i, think, the spat, that, we, had, was you, know, kind, of, a, mild, one, and, you, know now, i'm, pretty, much, over, it, but, it, would be, good, if, we, could, just you, know, just, spend, a, few, seconds, just you, know hashing, over, that, little, piece, of disagreement, that, we, had around, trustlessness, uh, i, can, i, can explain, the, argument, if, if if, if, that's, helpful, to, you, yeah, let's

do, it, and and, to, bankless, listeners, uh, as, you, can see, the, the, introduction, did, eric justice, because, we, didn't plan, any, of, this, pre-recording, and, we're jumping, right, in, with, the, contrarian opinion, um, eric, yeah, i'd, love, to, i'd love, to, hear, you, i so, i, think, this, is, in, regards, to, an article, that, i wrote, uh, sometime, in, march, 2020 and, the, reason, i'm, remembering, is actually, because, i, did, pull, it, up because, i, was, wondering, if, if, you, would uh, pull, this, up, and, want, to, talk, about this, first, and

the, article, title, is, called, eth, is irreplaceable and, uh, it's, basically, a, taxonomy about, the, uh, trustlessness, the, spectrum of, trustlessness of, certain, assets, so, i, make, the, basic uh, assertion, that, you, know, different assets on, ethereum, have, different, or, in, crypto writ, large, have, different settlement, levels, of, settlement guarantee, right, and, like even, in, the, real, world, different, assets have, different, levels, of, settlement guarantee

some, are, backed, by, the, nation, state, some require uh, like, legal, um, legal, trust uh, some, are, more, bearer, asset instruments and, some, i, put, in, a, quadrant, called, a trustless quadrant, and, again, i, pitch, this, as, sort of, a, spectrum of, trust, right, recognizing, that, nothing on, earth nothing, that, can, be, created, nothing, that has, ever, been, created, is, completely trustless but, i, think, you, take, issue, with, the, uh the, term, trustless, in, and, of, itself

and, i, would, love, for, you, to, explain, that as, we, start, this, episode where, you, take, issue, and, uh, we'll, we'll see, whether, we, actually, disagree, at, the end, of, this uh, or, whether, we, agree, yeah, so, i, can give, my, take the, reason, that, i, took, issue, with, how you characterized, uh, the trustlessness, taxonomy, was, that, uh, if, i remember, it, correctly, and please, correct, me, if, i'm, wrong, you basically put, different, cryptocurrency, projects, on

an, axis, on, on, a, spectrum, where, they, went from uh, more, trustless, to, less, trustless whereas, in, in, yeah, you, can, see uh, in, this this, chart, here, that uh, basically, you, can, go, from more, trustless, to, less, trustless, where, i think, that, there, are uh, things, that, are, completely, trusted that, should, not be, on, a, trustless, diagram, at, all

so, i, don't, think, that, trustlessness can, in, can, incorporate, everything because, there, are, some, things, that should, be, completely, outside of, this, spectrum, because, they're, trusted so, i, don't, think, that, you, can, say, that you, know uh, a, bank, is, just, uh less, trustless, or, or, or and, that, the, die, is, more, trustless, i think, that banks, are, 100, trusted, and, doesn't, belong

in, a, diagram, of, trustlessness, at, all uh, i, think, that's, if, i, that's, how, i recall, the, argument and, i, tried, to, persuade, you, to remove, completely, trusted, things from, a, trustlessness, diagram and, you, rebutted, and, said, well, you, know that's, not, how, i, think, about, it, and, i said well, in, if, that's, the, case, then, i'm going, to, stop, engaging with, you, until, uh, you've, refreshed, your thinking, on, it, and, then, we, had, all, these

discussions, around, how, you, can, view, this topic, and uh, now, i'm, you, know, i've, i've, listened to, your, bankless, part, and, i, i i, don't, think, that, you, are, a, malicious actor, in, any, way, we, just, had, a disagreement, about terminology, but, i, don't, think that, you, are, harmful or, that, you're, bringing, a, negative nuance, to, the, industry, so, that's, why, i came, on that's, why, i've, now, come, around, so, i'm

on, the, pod, now i, think, we, can, get, over, this, and, we, can we, can, be, friends, again and, and, chat, about, things, that, are really, important, because, i, think, that our main, goals, with, our, efforts, in, the cryptocurrency, space are, pretty, much, 90, percent, aligned so, eric, i, think, that, if, i'm, interpreting what, you're, saying, correctly, that what, you, are, really, asking, to, change, in this, diagram, here, is, really asking, to, change, where, like, the, x, x, and y, axes, are

it's, like, on, and, so, perhaps, so, you, you do, agree, that, there's, this, thing, in concept called, called, trustlessness, that, some crypto, assets try, to, emulate, like, you, know, bitcoin, and ether, to, perhaps, the, most, degree and, what, i, think, what, you're, saying, is everything, to, like, perhaps, on, the, left side, of, this, diagram you, you, are, saying, like, why, are, we, even calling, it, uh, putting, it, on, the trussless, spectrum, at, all, in, the, first place, let's, use, completely, different words, for exactly, completely, different, part, of this, zone, exactly exactly, what, different, words, would, you

use, than, eric versus, trustless, no, i, just, put trusted, and, trustless, in, completely different axis, you, should, have, a, split, here, where you, put things, that, ultimately, do, depend, on trust in, a, complete, on, a, completely, different axis, here and, because, right, now, if, you, look, at, the you, have, trustless, issuance on, the, y, axis, and, then, the, trustless

settlement, on, the, x axis, i, think, that, you, should, have there, should, be, uh, an, axis, that, goes, to the, left, where, you, have, completely trusted, things uh, but, you, know, i, don't, want, to, spend too, much, time, on, this, bat can, i, just, can, i, just, say, something, i actually, don't, think uh, there's, a, real, spat, there, i, think much, of, this, is actually, uh, semantics, and, probably, the result of, uh, me, just, being, a, sloppy, diagram drawer i, think, maybe, someone, who's, listening, to

bankless uh, and, in, the, bankless, nation, can, take the, diagram, that, we're, showing, right, now and, come, up, with, something, that, better illustrates, that because, fundamentally, i, think, i, agree with, with, what, you're, saying, right like, some, assets are, completely, trusted, on, on, one, side, of the, spectrum and, then, you, have, the, spectrum, of trustlessness, where, maybe, you, get, this this, perfect, state, on, the, other, side, of the, spectrum, that's that's, completely, trustless, but, of course, no, asset, can, achieve, that

i, just, think, the, diagram, is, maybe, drawn in, a, way, that, does, not, make, that, clear and somebody, else, could, do, a, better, job, i, am not, a, diagram that, is, not, my, day, job, i, was, just, trying to, write, an, article, to, get, a concept, out, there, and, a, mental, model, out there, which, is, the, mental, model, of different, assets, on, ethereum, have different, degrees of, trust, so, if, you're, buying, usdc on, ethereum, final, settlement, actually happens

in, meat, space, it, happens, inside, of, a coinbase uh, bank, account, in, the, traditional finance, world and, that, is, a, much, that, has, much different, settlement, guarantees than, something, like, die, where, you, have, a larger, degree of, that, settlement, happening, on, chain and, of, course that, is, much, different, than, something like, bitcoin, where the, entire, settlement, process, it's, a bearer, instrument, the, entire, settlement process, is, on, chain, i, felt, like, the crypto, world, didn't, completely understand, that, at, the, time anyway, i, actually, think, that, we, are

closer, in, alignment maybe, than, uh, than, was, previous, thought coming, into, this, podcast and, some, of, this, is, just, as, a, result, of a, sloppy, diagram, design, that, could, be improved, upon what, say, you, sir, i'm, perfectly, happy with, this, resolution, of, the, argument, and i, think, that if, we, just, zoom, out, a, little, bit, and like why, are, we, having, this, types, of disagreements, in, the, first, place it's, because, you, know, my, um interest, in, the, cryptocurrency, space

um, you, know, i've, i, i, got, into, into, the bitcoin, industry, uh, very, long ago, i, purchased, my, first, bitcoin, in 2012. uh, please, don't, rob, me, because, i, got, i lost, all, of, them when, mount, gox, collapsed, in, 2014, so don't, think, that don't, come, to, my, house, and, think, that you're, gonna, find, an, ocean, of, bitcoins there, that, i, bought, for uh, ten, dollar, space, um uh, but, uh, you, know, i've, become, so

fascinated, by, cryptocurrencies as, a, concept, and, as, a, revolution, that i'm so, ideologically, and, philosophically interested, in, the, space, that, you, know how, i, view, my, participation, and, interest in, this, space it's, not, about, you, know, i, don't, care as, much, as, i, probably, should, from, a commercial, perspective, about uh, you, know, making, the, right, types, of business, relationships, or, uh

positioning, myself, that, strategically like, if, i, had, that intention, of, you, know, just, building, out um you, know, making, as, much, money, as possible, then, i, would, have, been, on bankless, podcast, a, year, ago, or, you, know so, to, to, to, market, myself, but, i care, about, the, space, and, i, care, about things, being stated, correctly, so, that, we, can, as, an industry move, in, the, direction, that, i, think, is most, interesting, and, that, direction is, where, how, much, can, we, decentralize

pieces, of, the, economic, world, and, the finance, world to, to, basically, create, a, form, of revolution that, changes, how, humans, can, interact, and how, society, can, function that, is, much, larger, and, much, more interesting, goal, to, me, than you, know, caring, about, who, i, am, friends with so, that's, why, i, will, get, into, arguments with, all, sorts, of, people, that, i kind, of, actually, like, um, but, i, cannot you, know, i'm, just, trying, to make, sure, that, we're, all, on, the, right

path of, uh, optimizing, uh, how, much, we we, can, improve, uh, the, systems, for, the systems, of, today well, eric, wall, i, think, that, is, an extremely, noble, goal, and, it's, a, goal that, we share, on, the, bankless, podcast, as, well, we very, much view, this, as, a, very, fun, industry, with a, lot, of, you, know, money-making, potential but, really, at, the root, of, it, is, much, more, of, a, political and, cultural, revolution uh, and, we, see, ourselves, as, uh, you, know

people, that, are, attempting, to steward, that, revolution, into, into existence and, so, tip, of, the, hat, for, for, being, on that, on, that, same, you, know, path, as, well and, i, kind, of, want, to, just, dive, deeper into, why, this, industry, and, why, this revolution, resonates, with, you, so, much you, talked, about, your, philosophical interest in, uh, this, industry, okay, just, let's, uh just, dive, deeper, down, that, hole what, about, this, industry, do, you, think really, uh, is, fitting for, the, future, of, the, world, that, you think, should, come, about

um, yeah, i, i, just, want, to, add, one one, thing, uh, to, that, uh, before, we, get into, that, topic, which, is you, know, what, how, come, you, er, the, three of, us we, seem, to, have, the, same, ideological alignment how, come, we, get, into, these, kinds, of spats, and, i, think, that, has, to, do, that, i am, such, an, old, i, describe, myself, as, an old, dog, you, know, i my, terminology, and, my, way, of, thinking, of things comes, very, much, from, the, early, days, of bitcoin and, we, uh, shaped, the, early

terminology, for, things, uh, in, order, to make, sense, and, classify, different, crypto cryptocurrency, systems, and, that, has, been a, very you, know, conservative, and, restricted type, of, terminology, and, taxonomy so, uh, that's, why, you, know, people, that come, into, the, space perhaps, a, little, bit, later, that, aren't uh you, know, as, plugged, into, that, type, of taxonomy, thinking, that's, why, i, think, we

can, get, into, disagreements, it, just happens, that, we, come, a little, bit, into the, space, from, different, angles i'm, a, long-time, bitcoiner, we, care, very very, much, about very, specific, anal, things, and we, are, a, bit, ocd, in, terms, of, that, so that's, the, only, reason, that i, think, that, you, know, we, have, these, kind of, kinds, of, spats but, to, get, back, to, your, question, um, you know, i, have a, i, i, have, um, i, have, actually, i i, don't, have, a, youtube, channel, but, i have, a, youtube, account and, i, use, that, youtube, account

just, to, collect, all, the, videos, of presentations that, i've, made, that, other, people, have uploaded, and, i, put, it, into, a a, playlist, so, that, i, can, you, know, gather all, my, performances, in, the, in, in, the past, that, have, been, recorded and, one, of, those, performances, that, i personally, uh, liked, the, most, was, when, i was, invited to, a, swedish, uh, cryptocurrency uh, um, just, a, meet, up, and, they, asked, me to, talk, about, consensus, algorithms

and, uh in, that, format, i, got, full, full, uh control, of, what, i, wanted, to, express, and what, i, wanted, to, say and, what, i, wanted, to, talk, about, there was, and, now, i, think maybe, this, sounds, uh, like, an, outdated take, or, you, know everyone's, heard, it, before, but, when, this happened, this, was four, four, or, five, years, ago, i, think, it was, four, years, ago, when, we, talked, about it i, described, how, i, view

bitcoin, as, a, digital uh, a, primitive, digital, form, of, life because, if, you, think, about, what, actually uh constitutes, life, what, is, life, form, is, an amino, acid, a, life, form is, a, bacterial, life, form, uh there, is, no, discrete, the, step, where something uh, goes, from, being, you, know not, alive, to, more, alive, it's, it's, a spectrum, just, like, the trust, trustlessness, spectrum, that, we

talked, about uh, we, when, things, are, complex, enough and, they, are, self-sufficient, enough, and they, act, organically, enough, then, we, say they, are, alive, so you, know, a, bacteria, operates, almost entirely, algorithmic, and, i, think, that bitcoin when, i, compare, bitcoin, to, a, very, uh primitive, life, form, uh, like, a, bacteria or, even, perhaps, a, mushroom, mushroom, is

the, one, that, i, think, bitcoin, mostly resembles uh, i, do, classify, bitcoin, as, a, as, a as, a, as, a, primitive, form, of, life, and, i think, that, there, are, going, to be, more, and, more, uh, primitive, life, forms like, everyone, else, of, course, like, ai when, ai becomes, sentient, but, you, know, not, all life, forms, are, sentient uh, but, they, can, still, be, sent, because they, can, still, be, life, forms so, we, don't, have, sentient, uh, digital, uh life, forms, yet but, we, are, now, seeing, that, we, are, are

having, digital life, forms, that, haven't, reached sentience, yet so, the, way, that, i, think, about, it, and what, makes, me, most interested, in, the, cryptocurrency, space is, just thinking, about, uh, how, we, are, seeing digital, things, come, to, life, and, we, can analyze, those, as, life, forms and, i, think, that, if, you, look, at, the bitcoin, system, um you, know, every, 10, minutes, there's, a block almost, like, a, pulse, and, if, you

listen, if, you, put, your, ear, uh, next, to, a bit, main, server, hall, you, can, actually hear, bitcoin's, breath um, so, i, do, think, i, do, think, of, these things, as, primitive, life, forms, are, very interested, in, and, and, all cryptocurrencies, are, competing uh, with, each, other, uh, which, makes, it, uh that, we, also, have, an, evolutionary, aspect to, it, which where, the, uh, strong, and, the, weak, uh, this is the, strong, it's, it's, the, survival, of the, fittest

uh, it's, basically, like, a, big, hunger games, game and, what, adds, an, extra, interesting quality, to, this, evolutionary, game, of cryptocurrencies is, that, what's, um, you, know, in, the, in, the physical evolutionary, world, uh, you, know, a, cat cannot, clone, the, features, of, a, dog, a, cat it, can, do, that, over, many, many, iterations uh and, it, can, evolve, into, a, dog, if, it, needs to, but, in, the, cryptocurrency, world uh, one, cryptocurrency, can, actually, steal

features from, another, project, which, changes, the entire, dynamics, of, the, evolutionary, game so, uh, charles, darwin, when, he, was analyzing, different, life, forms, and evolution um, that, was, probably, very, interesting, to him uh, to, think, about, and, i, think, that, we have, a, new uh, evolutionary, game, with, different rules that, are, to, me, because, they're, new, it's it's, even, more, interesting so, it's, the, intellectual, uh, challenge

of, being, able, to, actually, take, all, of that in, and, analyze, it, from, that, perspective and, that, later, also, translates, like, if you, understand, the, evolution, of cryptocurrencies if, you, have, that, as, your, framework, that you're, thinking, about, it, as as, things, that, have, different evolutionary, characteristics that, make, them, uh, fit, to, survive then, you, can, actually, become, an, investor because, if, you, can, pick, the, ones, that are, likely, to, survive, then, you, can, also be, a, good, investor, so, that's, how

uh, even, though, this, sounds, very, you, know abstract, and, theoretical, and, scientific it, actually, maps, perfectly, well, with being, a, cryptocurrency fund, manager, because, i, just, gotta, try, to understand, the, dynamics, of, the, game, and the, evolutionary, game and, and, and, i, think, david, that, you've probably written, some, article, that, uh, also tunes, into, this, team, haven't, you, yeah yeah, this, is, a really, one, of, my, favorite, subjects, in this, industry, is is, i, actually, don't, think, you, can, really

understand, the, crypto, industry, at, large if, you, aren't, viewing, it, from, a biological, perspective uh, and, one, of, the, reasons, like, this, this industry, is, famously, like, so multi-disciplinary, and, that, complexity of, so, many, disciplines turns, into, complexity, theory uh, which, turns, into, just, the, the conversation, that, you, started, off, with with, is, where, does, life, actually, begin and, we, don't, really, know, but, the patterns, are that, life, is, always, about, the, management

of, economic, resources and, if, some, sort, of, organizational entity, can, manage, these, economic resources, appropriately, to to, the, benefit, of, the, life, form, and growing, because, it's, as, a, life, form, it is efficient, at, consuming, economic resources, while, also, capturing, further economic, resources all, of, a, sudden, we, have, like, the groundings, for, sustainability and, so, i i, applied, this, same, sort, of mental, model, to, um to, defy, apps, right, uh, where, defy, apps are, and, i, used, ether, as, like, the

metaphor, of, like, nutrients, or, food value, is, like, the, the, new, communication medium, inside, of, the, you, know, the internet, of, money, or, the, crypto, world and, so, defy, apps, that, consume, ether, and then output, some, sort, of, like, useful, product that, is, demanded, by, the, market are, able, to, go, out, into, the, world, and venture, into, this, new landscape, that, is, the, internet, find nutrients, which, is, value, you, know valuable, assets uh, and, then, produce, something, new, right and, so, the, the, mental, model, for, this, is that, like, or, more, concrete, model, for

this, is, that maker, dao, you, come, in, and, you, submit ether, you, can and, the, maker, dial, consumes, that, ether and, then, it, outputs, die and, that, die, is, demanded, by, the environment, around, maker, and, so because, maker, is, a, viable, economic manager, life, form, it, has, sustainability and, we, can, talk, about, that, with basically, every, single, defy, app, like there's, some, amount, of, value, input there's, some, amount, of, value, output, and because, the, output, is, demanded and, because, the, uh, the, defy, application

is, efficient uh, there, is, more, value, that, is, created by the, defy, app, more, than, it, is, consumed and, all, of, a, sudden, it, is, a, net outputter, of, economic, resources, which, is good, for, the, world, there's, more, value created, by, these, things, than, what, is consumed, and, that's, why, they, are sustainable and, we, can, put, them, into, the, category, of life, forms, and, i, think, this, is an, insanely, interesting, topic, of conversation, that, i, was, not, actually did, not, know, we, were, actually, going, down this, rabbit, hole, but, it's, literally, my favorite, rabbit, hole, in, all, of, crypto might, as, well, um, but, yeah, that, was

uh, something, that, i dived, very, deeply, into, into, 2015, 2016 and, it's, been my, framework, for, of, thinking, for, a, very long, time um, but, it's, it's, i, think, you've, phrased it, very, well, and, i, resonate with, with, what, you, said, to, a, very, large degree um, but, yeah, let's, let's, jump, into, the other, other, topics, that, you, guys, wanted to, discuss, well, really, quick, there because, i, think, we're, we're, starting, to see, how, eric, wall thinks, right, which, is, a, kind, of

part, of, the, the, entire, purpose, of, this podcast, because, i, think, you, you, bring some, really, interesting, insights, uh, to the, table, but you, almost, just, painted, yourself, just now, as, sort, of, a, digital, biologist of, types, right, just, studying, the evolution yeah, i, used, to, call, me, i, i, used, to, call myself, uh crypto, darwinist, i was, thinking, about, i was i, was, i, was, thinking, about, uh, actually giving, out, that, you, know, there's, this darwin, award that, you, give, to, someone, does, something