Trump's Crypto Reserve, SBF Prison Interview, and Ethereum's Leadership Shift

bankless Nation welcome to the weekly rollup each week I'm bringing on a different co-host to help me go through the news and this week I have the pleasure of being joined with Once Again by H kesi has happy Friday really happy to see you here today happy Friday to you too man uh so we have a pretty good agenda here today we're going to talk about uh Trump's Antics with the crypto strategic reserves also his tariff yo-yoing his uh implementation and retraction of tariffs um we're going to talk about ethereum as well but first before we get into to all of that stuff something that D just dropped right before we start started recording is um

a Tucker Carson interview with Sam bankman freed I was not expecting this to see on my timeline you know when you see weird stuff on your timeline your first your first my first reaction is like oh this is AI somebody just made an AI interview of Tucker Carlson and Sam bankman freed no it turns out this one's real uh it's a 42 minute interview with Sam bankman freed in prison and H I believe you just actually wrapped up watching this what were your takeway I watch the entire thing um it's really I don't know it's Eerie it's very sad um I mean the thing is like we saw so much of

SPF when he was in his prime you know he's now uh it's been two years that he's been in prison and just seeing what prison does to somebody it's it's like it's sad obviously what FTX did was sad and what happened with that whole just just just that whole Arc of his career within crypto um but you know SPF you can just tell he's he's obviously um he's being broken down by what's happening to him in prison and the thing that he kept bringing back uh which was which was again like you can you can you feel for the guy is just that he sees

what's happening in the world you know he was an investor in anthropic he led the anthropic seed round and at the time people were like oh my God what is he doing with the money turns out that was the best investment he made out of the FTX estate was the seed of anthropic but he was reflecting on the fact that the world's moving on like so much stuff is happening crypto is going through this Renaissance with this new Administration uh AI is is blowing up you know all these llms are now getting to an incredible scale of intelligence and it's all happening on the outside and inside a prison there's all he all he's doing is reading books playing chess and

uh apparently they have a the economy is in muffins so they have like these uh St muffins yeah muffin f is what's going on inside prison so um it's like hearing all that man it's like man um it's sad it's just sad that's interesting that's your reaction I didn't watch all of it I watched maybe 13 15 minutes of it and my takeaway was actually pretty different from yours my takeaway was that this is this man is a pretty cold algorithm that is going to just chug forward One Foot In Front of the other

no matter what his environment was like it's hard to armchair about this but like I didn't actually get too much sense of some emotional depth in Sam he's just like well like a couple years ago I was leading this big Exchange in the Bahamas and now today I'm trading muffins in jail and that's just the way things are that's just how it goes yeah I mean look he's he's obviously on the Spectrum he's not somebody who's who's going to be you know get nashing his teeth and crying but he's he's been in prison for two years you know like and and Tucker was asking him um how old

are you going to be when you get out and he said like well depends it could be 47 if I'm lucky um or 57 if I'm not lucky and I mean I don't know just like imagine what that must feel like to have the rest of your life waiting for you I don't know I I I I think if you're looking at that and you're like [ __ ] this guy I mean I get it um but I I just think like as a I don't know as a as as a human story it's just really uh difficult to watch somebody kind of processing what that means yeah and I do

take your point that the last two years have been incredible uh FTX was the bottom that was the worst worst in the markets worst in technology both in that's when um interest rates in the traditional equities Market was really uh hitting the traditional markets hard uh and we really didn't have that much excitement in AI quite yet um but things have been really uh accelerating uh ever since then that's right so I I initially when I saw this I was like I don't want to watch this I I feel like it's going to make me depressed but um did it

watching it it it did a little bit you can tell that it definitely bummed me out because I I don't know I I don't want to I don't want to imagine that like I I think um I I thought his his sentence was too punitive I think you spending 25 years in prison um as a young man like I I I don't think like obviously the scale of his financial crimes were were enormous um but I don't think sending people away for nonviolent crimes for like 25 years I I don't think that's useful like the man's life is destroyed his reputation is destroyed um

but uh you know yeah he'll get out when he's in his 50s yeah like that's that's that's bizarre and I I think even if you had gone to jail 30 40 50 years ago getting out in your 50s the world would be material materially different and that was that world this world is going to be insanely different can't even imagine we can't even imagine like the one place where you won't feel any of it is inside of a Maximum Security Prison yeah yeah well uh that's a pretty heavy way to start the weekly rollup maybe we can get into starting on a positive note

yeah let's get into uh the truth social I don't know what you call these things tweets they're called truths they're called truths okay uh so this one came out on March 2nd in the morning uh from Donald J Trump uh announcing a US crypto Reserve not a Bitcoin Reserve but a crypto Reserve will Elevate this critical industry after years of corrupt attacks by the Biden Administration which is why my executive order on digital assets directed at the presidential working group to move forward on a crypto strategic Reserve that includes not xrp salana and cardono

I will make the US the crypto capital of the world making America great again initially did not even mention Bitcoin let alone ether he actually rued it retweeted rru it and included and obviously Bitcoin and ether and other valuable cryptocurrencies will be the heart of as other valuable cryptocurrencies not and EXC as oh that is a very important distinction as other valuable cryptocurrencies will be at the heart of the Reserve I also love Bitcoin and ethereum so uh Donald J Trump announcing a crypto strategic Reserve naming five cryptocurrencies Bitcoin

ether salana cardano and Ripple uh what was your reaction when you saw these truths oh just so bizarre I mean so like okay a few a few red flags first of all he tweeted this or posted let's say just say posted I don't want to say trth he posted this on a Sunday right which is generally weird timing to to post something like this if you remember his first executive order he stated that he was directing a presidential working group to basically go in and investigate what makes sense for a strategic crypto reserve and they had something like 90

days I believe to come back with recommendations it sort of looks like he front run that yeah and basically said you know what never mind you guys don't do this I'll decide and uh now of course this decision markets rallied like crazy when they saw this but the big question is like okay what what does this actually mean is this is this happening because you can't do this unilaterally right like if you're saying okay I'm going to create a a Bitcoin stockpile that you can do straightforwardly because the because the the US government always has Bitcoin in reserves because of criminal seizures so

they have a bunch of Bitcoin already they have you know billions of dollars of Bitcoin um and they could decide unilaterally not to auction it off which is normally what happens when you seize criminal assets uh but for everything else like there's no Ada on the government balance sheet there's no soul there's no ether there's no none of this stuff exists so in order to get it you have to go buy it and to go buy it you need a congressional appropriation which means Congress Congress in charge exact Congress is in charge so Trump can't just do that he can't just make this happen he needs to go and advocate for this to Congress and do you think Congress is going to be like yeah you know what while we're cutting the

government we're also going to go buy some cardano that's put cardono let's take our money and buy card exactly so so the thing is mar get first rallied like crazy MH and then people started talking about wait wait wait hold on how how is this going to happen how much are we going to buy do we need Congress on board How likely is it to happen and so you saw by Monday so this tweet was on Sunday by Monday markets had completely reversed all the gains reverse and wor reverse and worse uh for everything I think cardano was the only thing that was like slightly up everything else was down right and um and I if you look at

Poly market so poly Market was pricing the likelihood of a Bitcoin Reserve at 65% and I believe for uh I think it was uh for for soul it priced it at 30 something perc like 31 32% so it looks like markets don't believe this they don't they don't believe that this is going to actually happen um because yeah Congress why why would Congress agree to do this like that's crazy uh Bitcoin you can do unilaterally everything else you need Congressional approval and that seems much less likely to happen yeah

the the markets just to put some numbers on it um cardano Rose the most about about 50% in the 24 hours post a tweet salana went up 20% Ripple went up 30% ether up 13% and Bitcoin up 10% um in 48 hours about uh almost 300 billion got added to the the total Bitcoin market cap so markets just pumped we were so back this was right after coming off of actually some pretty bloody candles uh and so this was a pretty strong reversal off the bottom uh I think like sentiment obviously because sentiment just tracks

price sentiment also became very very optimistic saying like oh that was clearly the bottom uh and then and then as a result of I think Monday Donald Trump announced tariffs which we're going to get into some macro conversation once the tariffs and the geopolitics uh set in then all of that got erased and then I think also maybe in addition to that the conversation that followed was people realize that oh the inclusion of things Downstream of Bitcoin really warps things in the crypto industry this was a a reported by Laura Shin who tweeted out and also wrote a report Ripple apparently pitched

salana to be a part of the national res Reserve in order to make the inclusion of Ripple in the reserve seem more legitimate uh according to familiar sources uh and so this has people in the crypto industry have now realized like oh this is changing the game if you can Lobby your way into having your crypto asset be a part of the reserve that is probably the most high leverage thing that you can do for the price of your asset so you better go ahead and do it and now now if you go and look on the Twitter timeline everyone is bull posting America all crypto companies are bull posting America uh and

are showing pictures of them in capit hill we have the crypto Summit that's happening tomorrow uh and uh this is a really good tweet that I likeed from nage from coin Center who uh retweeted a quote from B Bill Hughes who's a crypto lobbyist he says chains compete in the marketplace and not in DC conference rooms or at policy roundtables uh what's your take on this whole uh changing of the game uh for all this yeah I mean this is like this whole thing is just obviously we've strained so far from the

light of God as an industry right like once upon a time people used to talk about yeah I remember there's this old episode early in the life of Bitcoin where Satoshi was worried that um wikil leaks was going to start taking Bitcoin donations and Satoshi said this is a bad idea we should not encourage Wikileaks to bring down all this attention on us because we're not ready for it right we're not robust enough we're not decentralized enough we're not secure enough um and there was Supreme wisdom in him identifying that now it's just

like oh okay please government buy my bags like please please save my my coins price because it's going too low um I I think it's it's just so shortsighted because you know like take something like cardano cardano is probably the best example because cardano has literally onchain governance meaning that token holders vote on changes to the protocol right so it kind of inherited this from uh from tasos I think tasos was the first to do this in cardano ended up following suit and and what what does this mean this means that if the government buys enough of cardano

then the US government Now controls the chain that the government can now literally vote to change fundamental aspects of the chain and if the government owns let's say billions of dollars a cardano right and it's not even just like look I I think they probably would not actually vote with their tokens they probably wouldn't engage in onchain governance but what here's what would happen let's say that cardano um has some kind of uh Rogue State actor using cardano right let's sayth Korea on cardano yes or North Korea is using cardano for all sorts of stuff or sanctioned entities or whatever

or Russia Embraces cardano and the US government says you know what we don't like that and unless cardano fixes this we're going to dump all of our cardano right you can imagine people in DC saying that oh this is this is this is supporting the Russians this is supporting the Chinese we should get rid of this thing and now all of a sudden even without them actually participating onchain governance everybody in cardano is basically you know healing to the US government the US government now implicitly controls this thing and you will only do things that the US Government likes otherwise your tokens going to get dumped this is just so obviously corrupting of what the point

of crypto is like okay well if if that's true then why are we doing any of this so you know I think for Bitcoin Bitcoin is so clearly Beyond anybody's control the US government could buy $10 billion of Bitcoin they still wouldn't be able to control it um but for for anything else in the space um I mean the idea that this is a strategic reserve of you know cardano or salano is is obviously nonsensical there's no strategy there's no strategic reason for the US government to own any of these assets May for Bitcoin I can see it because the

US government owns gold and Bitcoin is trying to be gold and it's it's strategic in the sense of being a strategic Financial investment and front running where the world is going right and kind of being the one yourself to shift the Overton window and get everybody else to follow that's a great idea I think that's Wise It's judicious it's exactly what the US government should do because it has the um uh it has the ability to absorb that risk MH but for everything else I think one it doesn't really benefit these other assets and second it it has no value to the US government at all my

interpretation of this is this is um this is Downstream of the crypto industry's support of Donald Trump helping him get elected and Donald Trump responds to incentives and when he says words that the crowd likes he says them more and he says them louder and the crypto crowd what the crypto crowd likes the most is the president of the United States saying that he's going to buy your bags and then all and then the crypto industry just goes wild and so Donald Trump's responding to incentives and I think this is Downstream of that and it's also starting to jump the shark a

bit this is like getting getting a little too far uh I think you kind of gave your answer but maybe I'll ask this question just more explicitly what would your happy outcome be because I I can see I can see three outcomes that I think are reasonable just no Reserve at all just no no Reserve just none just don't do it we don't need to do it uh gold is fine Gold's great uh oil Reserve also makes sense because energy is really important Bitcoin like it's arguable but like I think it's just simple to not have a reserve that's one one possible outcome

and I think that's a pretty good one the other one is as you said Bitcoin is a for every reason that you said I won't Trace over that argument again having a Bitcoin reserve and nothing else and then I can see a smid of possibility of Bitcoin and ether but I will admit as an ether holder as an ether biased person that is a minority of the of the possible outcomes that I think is either good or likely That's my kind of like lay of the land so like I'm kind of in the camp of like equal parts nothing at all equal parts okay let's have Bitcoin and then a very small Mis smidgen of

Bitcoin and ether and then anything else beyond that I'm like that's just too messy it's too corrupting the incentives are so warped let's just not even go there how do you how do you agree with that analysis look I own a lot more ether and soul than I own Bitcoin I own Bitcoin but uh not not not as much as those other assets and um so it's good for my bags if the US government buys a bunch of ether bunch of soul but you know whatever other stuff um I think it's clearly the wrong answer it's clearly the wrong answer and like this this is one of those things that even if

you do this it's going to get reversed by the next Administration and it's also going to be it's going to ultimately impune the uh the genuiness of people in the space right because it look Trump has made crypto the family business now that that just is what it is and you know the fact that Eric Trump is bull posting ethereum and they're building World Liberty Financial on top of ethereum um and he's got his meme coin on salana all these things just make it obviously suspect that he's he's doing

this for the good of America or for some some broader strategic interest everybody knows that there it's there's no strategic interest in any of this um it's I I I I think that Nick Carter actually put it very well is that there's just so many reasons why this is going to end up hurting you in the long run by politicizing what is meant to be intrinsically an apolitical movement right yes I want to play a game with you uh hasib which is also from a Nick Carter tweet where he uh ranks and rates Trump's crypto schemes according to how

crazy they are in chronological order so he he's rating how crazy they are uh so the first ever crypto project from Trump was the nft project he calls that a three out of 10 low stakes kind of cool at the time uh not too big big of a deal next came World Liberty Financial seven out of 10 kind of in insane thing to do ahead of the election started as vaporware now an extremely questionable slush fund thing that Justin Sun owns a lot of bad vibes Trump coin nine out of 10 completely unhinged just overall crazy move Melania six out of 10 just

kind of sad at this point and then the crypto Reserve featuring cardano and ripple 10 out of 10 crazy 10 out of 10 unhinged I don't even know what to say at this point a government bailout for your buddy who gets crypto news from Tik Tok Silver Lining is at least the Maxis are upset and then he concludes with sad how long this list is I think I think he gave those those ratings I would agree with those ratings what's your take I yeah completely agreed I think Nick Nick so far in my mind has been nailing this every step of the way um I mean Nick himself though he's he's um I believe

he's also against a Bitcoin Reserve so he his view is that we shouldn't be doing any of these things which which which to be fair I think is um is very sensible and and Nick I you know he's he's very bullish on bitcoin he's very uh kind of Bitcoin Bitcoin pilled but um but I I respect it and I think as an industry sometimes you kind of have to look past the short term and the short term is like oh okay government's buying our bags that means you know number go up like isn't that great I think for for for Bitcoin itself I think you can say very clearly Bitcoin has has crossed

that Chasm and has earned its place on the balance sheet of of a sovereign wealth fund um and it's not the first one right it's not as though America is the first Sovereign wealth fund to to buy Bitcoin we know that tasac owns Bitcoin we know El Salvador and a few other countries own some Bitcoin um but the like in order to be really long term you have to be intellectually rigorous and I think the only serious way to look at this is that this this is not long-term good for you there's um I'm of two minds when it comes to the Trump Administration and

its relationship to bitcoin I see who he's appointing to his cabinet to the administration um marua is now the acting chair of the SEC and then Hester Pur has been given authority to basically be the SEC chair as a relat to crypto cftc Commissioners Brian quintens we're getting a lot of things that have been on our wish list for almost a decade now in the crypto industry we're getting we're getting like 10 out of 10 fantastic treatment by the three-letter four-letter agencies uh and then even David Sachs who isn't really a a formal member he's just the the cryptar he

tweets out this over the past decade the federal government sold approximately 195 ,000 Bitcoins for the proceeds of 366 million if the government had held the Bitcoin it would be worth over 17 billion today that's how much it has caused Americans taxpayers to not have a long-term strategy totally fine and reasonable take for somebody inside of the administration to give and I I'm just like all of the things that Donald Trump is doing I'm like please stop all of the things that he has appointed people in positions of authority are

doing are great and I'm like green light keep going full steam ahead is that do you agree with that take well I mean Trump also did the appointments right so he did all these he did do the appointments he did all these things the things that he's doing yeah yeah the thing that he's doing personally with his own business interests uh yeah I'm not the biggest fan of um look at the end of the day all that we really ask for as an industry is to be left alone right that's kind of the whole crypto ethos is this libertarian like that's the whole idea behind all this technology is that it gives people

freedom to do what they want to do with their own money and uh the the idea that okay well you know in addition to all that we also need the government to like buy things and like to actively intervene in markets no we don't need that and it's unwise to ask for it um I think at the end of the day like I give Trump a lot of credit I give this Administration a lot of credit for having very clearly listened to what was going on with respect to you know regulation by enforcement with de banking with all the stuff that was getting in the way of the industry just doing its thing and that to be clear has

all been cleared away now we are in a great position we need anything more we don't need government to be buying things and we don't need the corrupting influence of all these companies now trying to uh beseech the government oh please uh please uh government will you buy this will you buy that will you will you make me a winner um I think it really is bad for all of us to have all of this so David sack's Point here that look if Government held all their Bitcoin it'd be worth a lot more today yes look I I don't think the government is really in a position to speculate on

new technologies that's not what the government should be doing it doesn't it doesn't have the competence to do that right that's why we have that's why we don't have a sovereign wealth fund uh it's why we don't have the government making Investments of this kind we have private in investors doing that because we believe that they're more competent and they're more able to take those kinds of risks um at this point Bitcoin is not a speculative investment right that that is very clear Bitcoin has crossed that Chasm as I said so I think it's fine to say like well look government should not have been holding on to the Bitcoin and hoping that it

would go up because the the government had no way to know government had no competence to know but now it does now it does have the competence to know it has the people in place it has the regulatory structures in place and Bitcoin now is over 15 years old this is no longer taking a bet on something that might happen this is basically seeing the trend line and getting ahead of it yeah yeah the United States government would actually not be the first government to buy Bitcoin it would be something like the second or third or fourth or something still very close to the front and in terms of size meaningfully the first uh but yeah they are by no by no means the first government to be doing this we're going

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we're in this like perceived trade War potential trade War uh Trump maybe this sounds like deja vu but he confirmed 25% tariffs on imports from Mexico and Canada that would take effect on Tuesday uh that has been received by some counter moves so 25% on goods and 10% on energy from Canada to the United States uh export tax from Ontario 20% on tariff goods from China to the United States so there's a trade war going on uh these this has since been rolled back selectively so I think automobile industry is getting a selective undoing

of the Tariff the current joke is that we're getting tariffs but everything has uh an exception so we still don't know how this tariff conversation is is happening uh but also people are just kind of understanding that Trump is no longer aligned with the stock market he is now aligned with the 10year treasury he wants uh the stock market down and the yields the the 10e treasury to go up and for yields to go down uh and so people I think the market have digested to have short-term pain as their plan why this is happening is is multifold I

did an episode with Jim biano I think that um I think did a really good job explaining this but basically it's really good for domestic manufacturing it's really good for domestic Innovation and the jobs Market uh and he thinks I think the the the 40 chess move is that Trump can make the economy surge off of much more real growth in the GDP in addition to everything that I've just said uh Elon Musk and Doge are are laying off tons of people from the Federal government which is one of the nation's biggest Spenders and so spending is going down which is

unraveling some like perceived fake GDP growth and overall markets are confused they're concerned they're uncertain uh they've been rocked uh what's your take about like the recent unfolding events in the macro markets I think anybody who's trying to frame this positively is absolutely talking out of their ass like that's absolutely ridiculous that's of course that's ridiculous right like there's a reason why every single Economist says that this is a bad idea there's a reason why his own Administration is confused and is like Oh wait we're doing wait no no we're not doing this uh like there's the the

messaging is not consistent and and there's a reason why markets are so surprised by this is because literally everything that you've been hearing from all the Talking Heads was that oh Trump is posturing he's not going to go all the way on this because it would obviously be so stupid to start a trade war with your closest allies in a very integrated supply chain like these are the like these are not the enemy like the United States has enemies no doubt about that uh it is not Canada and and Mexico like we intentionally like if you

remember during covid we had this thing called friend Shoring friend Shoring is the idea that like okay we we want to uh un untangle some of these Supply chains and bring them back domestically but obviously it doesn't make sense to do them in the US because it's just not our expertise we should try to bring them closer to our hemisphere to people that we do close trade with and we have a strong trust relationships that means Canada and Mexico now Trump is saying no no no they're also enemies everybody that's not the US is an enemy which is stupid which is absolutely stupid like it is complet it is economically

destructive to take all of the human capital and all of the economic capital that we've that we found ways to bring close to us and say no no no that's not good enough that's not good enough it has to literally be in the United States right like why is it that we're moving some of this manufacturing stuff into Mexico and into Canada the answer is because the United States sucks at it we have way too onerous regulations we have way too high labor prices and that just makes it uneconomical to do things here so if we're if we're doing that here like what is the United States really good at we're really good at high value

stuff not manufacturing not making cars uh we're really good at the intellectual labor we're really good at making AIS we're really good at Finance we're really good at this this very very high-end stuff which increasingly is the stuff which we're the Envy of the world and Trump is saying no no no no no we want to be the Envy of the world for everything we want to have low-end manufacturing also in the US uh it's not going to happen there's just absolutely no way it's going to happen and the reality is that yes okay we're in a trade War ostensibly but you know whatever Mexico and Canada are doing to us doesn't really matter because we

don't import that much from Mexico and Canada um it's more them are so export driven like we're just crushing the Mexican and Canadian economies and forcing them into recessions and and like their their governments are confused they're like wait what what especially Canada Canada's like what what do you want from us I don't I don't know we don't we're not making the fental guys like that's Mexico and China it's not us it's I swear it's not us so I I think look uh Trump has his own um he has his own instincts about politics

and he has his own instincts about economics which very clearly I mean uh Trump said while he was on the campaign trail that he loves um I believe it was uh McKinley who was this like the Trump the Trump uh sorry not the Trump the uh the Tariff president and um it's it's funny because uh you know McKinley had two terms his first term he was very very aggressive on tariffs and his second term he basically renounced all of his tariffs and changed his mind and decided that tariffs were a terrible idea and the United States got a lot wealthier when they removed all these tariffs so if you look back in history

at the smooth Holly tariffs which were the instigator for a lot of what happened in World War II you just like the our country just learned tariffs are stupid tariffs are taxing yourself it is making importing and trade which is the thing that made the world Rich over the last 300 years uh it is making that more expensive it is saying no no no we should do less trade right like to the extent that Trump is saying oh the the they're charging us too much to to send Goods through the Panama Canal that's trade when you are when you are raising