201 - Garry Kasparov on Why Freedom Always Wins

what do you think is the biggest threat to Freedom right now is it China is it is it Russia actually I I want to throw a third candidate in there the United States I mean is that a threat to Freedom um welcome to bank list where we explore the frontier of Internet money and internet Finance this is Ryan Shan Adams I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more bankless guys we have chess Legend and freedom fighter Gary Kasparov he talks about AI

geopolitics and crypto Gary was one of the first people to experience machine intelligence and a profound way he was the greatest chess player of all time when he lost his first match to an IBM computer it's called Deep Blue this happened in 1997 and since then human beings that's us have never been able to beat machines in a game of chess so naturally David and I start the conversation there number one what does Gary think about chat gbt this new era of AI what does he think about the threats how about the

promises of AI then we get to geopolitics why did the Soviet Union fail but we still have totalitarianism in Russia we talk about that for a while we also talk about what countries are the biggest threats to freedom and how do we combat this growing authoritarianism that seems to be sweeping the world also of course there a crypto podcast so we asked him what role crypto has to play in all of this and finally we end with his advice for us as we enter the next Decades of these tumultuous times I think the theme of

this episode was really freedom and to me Gary's optimism was probably the brightest part of uh of this particular episode David what why was this significant to you other than I know Gary is like one of your all-time favorite people like an idol for you you are a chess player yourself are you not yeah a chess player which is how this podcast really came to be in in the first place but um yeah it's just like Gary comes from many different walks of life um narrow skill set in chess that was Tred by a computer but then also just

working around the hard problem of Vladimir Putin and evil out of Russia yeah uh and he's had so many different walks of life that all only increased in their relevancy as the decades went on uh and so he seems to be a person whose skill set and experiences seem to be really attuned to have developed a sense of wisdom about how to navigate them moving forward into the future which is really the the theme of this podcast at large it's like the future future Scary Gary tell us about the life lessons that

you've had to so that we can absorb some some of your knowledge I think the biggest thing I got out of this podcast Ryan is of course Gary's emphasis on freedom but really he made this call to action for more leadership because where do we get freedom from it's it's from strong leadership and so maybe just incepting that into listeners brains as we navigate through these conversations with Gary this this ER of leadership that we need to have strong leadership good leadership uh is something I think that we need to have in order to navigate through uh these chaotic

decades that I think everyone understands that we do have ahead of us and David I I can't wait to record the debrief with you which is our episode after the episode and uh I want to talk specifically about how this episode came to be cuz my memory is a little bit foggy but I think there's a really cool story there if you are a bankless citizen you of course you have access to that right now it's on the premium RSS feed you get when you subscribe if you are not yet a citizen click the link in the show notes and you can find out more about that all right guys we're going to get right to the conversation with Gary but before we do we want to thank the

sponsors that made this episode possible including bankless Nation I'm delighted to introduce you to Gary caspero a celebrated chess champion author and human rights Advocate famously the first human to lose a game of chess to a computer after losing to IBM's deep blue in 1997 marking a significant history in AI Gary also after standing standing up uh to the human rights violation of Vladimir Putin had to flee Russia fearing persecution in 2013 and has been an outspoken critic ever since he is also the chairman of the human rights

Foundation working to promote freedom in countries ruled by author authoritarian regimes so with experience in relation to geopolitics artificial intelligence and human rights Gary caspero might just be the perfect guide to guide us through some very challenging topics that will likely Define the rest of the decade and Beyond Gary welcome to bankless thank you for inviting me uh just few Corrections about the introduction so uh it just to clarify few things you know this one is that yes it was a first

match that a world champion lost to a machine but as for the games um single games or tournament games uh bashin were on the rise from the late 80s so I think the the first game that machine won against the grandmas uh was 1988 so it's it's it was a process so that's I say clearly you know the match brought most of attention and uh again for the record I have to say that the first year 1996 the first match I won so that was yeah thank you that's plus one for

the humans yes yes yes so uh uh as for AI it's just you know um we we can talk about it just in in depth but I mean DBL was anything but intelligent and it didn't have to be intelligent because it was just about you know brute force and then and the the reason machines were and are now Superior to humans in in in all the games is because they made few mistakes they cannot resolve you know all all the problems they cannot calculate you know to the to the to the end you know you cannot exhaust the game

of chess that according to CLA Shannon has 46 zeros in the number of legal moves um but again making few mistakes even the best of us the best humans we are still humans we are we are vulnerable and just and uh and you know we are poised to make to to uh to make mistakes and um and yeah you correctly stated that you know I I left Russia in 2013 uh more than 10 years ago it's a February nearly 11 years ago um but uh one more correction I have been criticizing Vladimir Putin you know way

before I had to do my my country so and it's not you know it's not being a Monday Morning Quarterback so my first article warning about Putin's threat dated January 4th 2001 The Wall Street Journal so again I it's everything is is recorded well Gary the the background that you have uh and again the the chess computer conversation it's a narrow intelligence right it's not like the AI that we are experiencing in the year 2023 which is a little bit more General to me it's like a canary in the coal

mine and then we also have the the geopolitics conversation with Russia and also just more broadly at large there seems to be many different paths that we could go down that are all relevant things that we've talked about Bank lists and prior episodes and things that the globe is talking about as a whole it's just that your your history your background seems to touch on so many things that have only increased in relevancy as time has gone on computer intelligence has increased in relevancy Global geopolitics has kind of increased in chaos uh so your background and

experience seems to just be very apt for the year 2023 the decade of the 2020s would you agree with that reflection and how has your experiences kind of guided your thoughts as a lot of the events of the globe has unfolded in the last few years I'm flattered so just was was all all all the comments so yes I um I can say that my experience my knowledge um though is fairly limited you know when you just look at all walks of life is very relevant these days so and what also helped me is that it's

it's um it's my ability to to be self-critical and also to recognize the limits of my knowledge I know what I know but it's more important I know what I don't know and I know how not how not to cross the border between between those two domains and um yes uh geopolitics is important because many of the things I mentioned so for instance in my book winter is coming while Vladimir Putin and en of three world must be stopped published back in 2015 you know it's tragically came into into

reality and uh and uh uh many of the things I described in my book uh deep thinking when machine intelligence ends and human creativity begins in 2017 they also very relevant these days and as you pointed out so I was the uh first um uh human who had his job threatened by a machine so uh and while back in 1997 so I thought it would be a curse you know that would follow follow me for the rest of my life now I think it's more it was

more like a blessing because I had an experience that is so relevant now and I can share it and it's not just to to terrorize people's mind you know by telling them that's the end of just the end of the world is around the corner but to the contrary to tell them that it's not the end of the world it's it's it's it's something that you know we can deal with if we recognize our limitations again where where um our our knowledge uh uh is is is limited and where we should rely on machines but where we are indispensible so tons of

things that you know that's happened in my life you know uh though not every time I was happy about it now are just you know help me to create kind of a mosaic that that is very useful to analyze the very complex picture of the modern world in more recent years we've watched chat gbt explode onto the scene and really dominate the conversation in society and this has caused a lot of people's like reactions to chat gbt also be a part of that conversation we had this episode with elazer owski who's a

famously an AI Doomer he's like oh AI is going to not just come take our jobs it's going to come and take over the world and we're all going to die as a result uh and that was very very shocking and sobering I would say very sobering yeah uh and we've seen Society at large have this conversation with itself about is AI good is AI bad what will it do to us well what will it do to society and we seem to be going through this process of understanding and acceptance about the way AI is going to interact with us would you say that

society's kind of following the same pattern you went through when you had your Reflections about playing chess versus IBM deep blue and or just computers at large are we in society at large going through the same process of understanding and reflection about AI that you went through is is there similarities there there are similarities but I had a personal experience and again in chess we could see the machines rise you know rise to dominance but also machines limitations so it's it's um it was not accidental that the the sculpt of the Chess World

Champion was the kind of s Grail for for computer experts because for a long time you know top scientists believed that chess was the it's like Nexus of human creativity intelligence and this is you know that could be a key to actually to reveal the secrets of human intelligence it goes back to Alfred B you know the the father of IQ test back at the end of the 19th century who was fascinated by chess PL especially those who could play blanz and he he wanted to actually to to

to um to open the the the the the brains and just to find out how this magic moves being made and he he was under impression that that's you know the shortest shortest cut to the secrets of human intelligence um general intelligence H and this belief you know has been inherited by great minds like Alan uring CLA Shannon norit winner so it's it's it's it's a widespread belief that chess is is an answer again it's it's happened on on on on on um our part of the world in our part of the world because there are many other versions of

Chess like in Japan and other versions but the European version of Chess you know was always um um like an ultimate uh ultimate test in the eyes of the scientist of of human machine um encounter and uh um and its machines you know kept improving the their performance and as already mentioned by 80s we had something you know know a tangible Force so deep thought actually

it was the uh prototype of the blue because it was this team from carag University that was eventually you know went to IBM IBM purchased the project but they had the machine that had the first success back in 1988 so in 1989 I faced this computer played two rapid chess games it's I think an hour and a half 90 minutes for a game and I won quite handle it so back in 1989 but we could see the progress and and I have to say that you know we we we were fascinated but uh we didn't even understand you know this is how serious

the threat was uh um because we we we already suffered some painful losses in Blitz chairs five minutes chair or a rapid chair 25 30 minutes chair but we were under the impression that it's not it's not just because machines you know would be better you know eventually would be better than us but because we had little time if we had more time we know we could think you know just and avoid some stupid mistakes not understanding that we have if we have more time machine has more time and it's just it's it's amazing that you know

this it's many Grandmasters made this mistake I lost to to to um one of the computer programs in 1994 the rapid chess match so and yeah and I it's two there was two games in London so then I played again I beat this computer but we would we thought it was yeah it's something that you know it's um it's good for exercise you know it's good for Preparation but it should not you know uh threaten our dominance In classical chess so that's why the 1997 match was was was such a big shock though I have

to say that for me the first you know um the first call you know uh was uh if you may call it a watershed moment was in 1996 I mentioned I won the match but I lost game one so that was the first game where computer could beat seing world champion in what would call classical chess six hour chess and though I just I fought back I won three games and so won the match but it's already somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that it's we are just you know we are on on on on a

losing track so and after 1997 so I had to just you know I had to think you know what would what would come next to to to our my beloved game so whether you know just we we have to do something else but not to play the game which is doomed and then I realized that look it's the machines could do a better job and it would happen though we still competed for I would say about seven eight years I played two matches not of course as publ as as IBM matches back in U 2002 2003 against actually 2003 two matches against German program and against

Israeli program it's deep Fritz and deep junor both matches added as a tie but I knew the end was near so I just it's it was it was a clear track so this is like it riding on the wall and and that's why I came up with an idea of advanced chess that was a combination of human and machine so that's how we can play together to to to get the best of two of two worlds and um and I had you know I had time to to uh ruminate about you know my games my failures so my accomplishments and and also looking at

the machines and I just recognized that while machines would would keep improving there's still limitations and and again we can talk in more details about it but this limitations I don't believe can be can um uh uh be removed uh even if machines you know could be as powerful as chat GPT so there even if you talk about AI because I still think that there's a certain elements of of um human nature like creativity that cannot

be replicated for a very simple reason uh creativity means that you accept the notion of failure this is not the way machines work so machine always looks for for bottom line that's the that's and again that all tiny things what is very important for us to understand that if if you look at the decision- making process as 100% and recognizing that there's no Perfection of universe no 100% can be achieved it's it's it's about you know us finding our spot and and um stomping on our on our pride and

saying okay we belong to last few decimal places we have to find exactly so where we can add something unique unique contribution to to a machine that will make the combination of human and machine uh uh um most um uh productive so that's why I think it's the future is not you know machines dominance the future is working with with machines and and for those who are just trying to to um use only dark uh or dark paint to to uh uh show the

future I mean my answer is look it's it's not a magic W but it's not the Terminator it's not a free ticket to heaven but it's not the key to unlock the doors of of hell it's you know it's it's it's human invention and and again while it could outperform Us in in in in many areas we still you know we still have this the it's not a control but we still occupy a place that I don't think machines can can take away take away

from us and and again it's it's so it's so tempting you know to follow the path of the Terminator movies and matrixes but actually while I was a big fan of the Terminator back in in the 80s and and early 90s I still didn't understand why machine wanted to kill people so question answer so what for I mean I mean some some in the community uh just basically say as a byproduct of consuming resources they

they will crush and destroy all of humanity so a little less like the Terminator vision and more like a you know us squashing an ant because we're you know building house or you know an ant colony but I I want this is why I want to ask the question because you've observed this before when deep blue came on scene I'm sure people were making comparisons to Terminator right and they were saying oh is this the end are are humans kind of over and something similar has happened I would say in the last year in terms of the public conversation but it has felt like this new technology chat GPT has been sort of

a a a a massive order of magnitude advance and I'm wondering if you still at at its core if you've had time to mess around with chat GPT if you still see it as yes I'm still seeing deep blue here it's still doing the Brute Force it's still not a human I it was interesting uh Gary I I just asked while we're were having this conversation can chat gbt play chess well so according to chat GPT I asked chat GPT this question it says uh I can analyze chess positions since J moves but my capabilities are

not on par with specialized chess engines like stockfish or Alpha zero and then I asked it to answer the same question but as Gary Kasparov and it said this is what you would say while chat GPD demonstrates a remarkable ability to process and generate language its skills in chess are not comparable to those of a Grandmaster or a specialized chat engine I don't know if that's something that you would say but this kind of intelligence the ability to have a conversation with a computer this feels so new to us yeah I mean look I

I probably everything depends on the angle of observation you know this is the the glass is half you know empty or half full so that's the actually I view it from the other side I think it's phenomenal because I think this machines you know will unleash you know more of human creativity because there so many things can be done by machines if we know how how to balance it so we can start you know inventing things because this is this this is some of the Wilder dreams can be can be can be reached so they they're within our

reach you know I mean when we look at machines so it's these there's so many mysteries of nature whether it's you know in deep oceans or in outer space that we cannot um unlock without computers so while I I'm not you know I'm not holding a crystal ball and not pretending to be nostram to tell you everything will be perfect in the future I think that again it's it's it's it's a new challenge but as every challenge it has threats there risks but I think the benefits the benefits could be

phenomenal so it's we just have to stop debating you know whether it's a a mortal threat to us or not look you know people have been debating about you know machine threat to our civilization for quite a long time so it's it's the you remember the the Lites in in in the UK so 200 years ago and I can tell you you know what you know who made actually the first speech you know Against the Machines against again we talked about you know this is the Primitive machines that you know that that could remove many people you know from the from the from their workplace back in 1812 it was

the it was the maiden spee of Lord Byron uh in in British Parliament yeah very eloquently arguing that machines that could could throw so many people into Poverty of course you know it's it's it's it's it's a stretch but still I think you know it's this you know certain things you know we we should probably you can't abandon the discussion but I don't think we should give too much emphasis it's called progress and progress you know brings various things you know yes it's always easy to talk about destruction because it's much easier to create nuclear bomb

and nuclear reactor so yes and of course first thing we think oh how that's just what happens you know the machines will go after us I see you know just again totally different angle fantastic you know so now time you know so many things we can do because a lot of work you know this is the the the rot work can go to the machines so it's I tell people that this if machines can do your work so probably should consider not about machine but about the work you're doing we're presently watching Silicon Valley have a very similar conversation

about itself and its relationship to AI um Mark andreon recently wrote This Very Long blog post talking all about uh accelerationism and how we need to you know accelerate technology because that is where we get you know wealth generation and we you know the the rising tide lift all boats um the alternative side of this we saw open AI have this drama where a board which was more deceleration try and steer the ship of open AI in a deceleration way which led to all of that drama that we saw recently falic butterin just put out a blog post talking about his flavor of

this where he is a fan of this thing called Defensive acceleration where he promotes defensive technology and it's all about just like perceptions of the future in our relationship with technology have you been tapped into these conversations and do you have like a stance on accelerationism and Technology as it relates to these conversations look you know I I follow out these conversations you know uh uh I believe I have something to say and my view is again you can say whatever you want but it it's happening so it's this is yeah you can talk about defensive but

some people will do the other they the opposite so it's it's it's the it's this technology you know reveals human potential it offers great opportunities you know just for individuals you don't need you know billions of dollars of investment and secret uh plans and and and locations like Los Al you know it's it's to have Manhattan Project you have one or few individuals that could you know literally change the world is it dangerous yes it is dangerous but it could be beneficial so I'm you know I'm

encourageable optimis by nature I just believe that you know it's the uh we we have new tools and these new tools can help us to to upgrade our knowledge you know again going back to the to the mysteries of our planet so this is I think this is the the our knowledge of of the oceans it's under 5% I mean 4% or just just imagine is this is this we don't know our planet so this how about you know finding out where we leave and how about you know improving our knowledge of the art of space there's so

many ring happening you know this is the I think this this this couple of months ago so there was a first successful attack against the asteroids so those are things are just you know part of the of this development and and just ignoring the fact that so many great things happening now you know with you know with General Improvement of living standards so with with us living longer so it's the and with again with our ability to to invent things that you know were way beyond our reach and concentrating only on dangers again I

think it's just you know it's it it makes this discussion a I don't think it's not practical and B again it's it's it's like you know standing against the wind you know the spitting is the wind so it's as we say oh let's you know let's make sure that we understand exactly how it works you know the Europeans uh bu bureaucrats are very much concerned about you know the the uh the machines you know the the black box so we we need gdpr we need all the regulations and question is in business do we care about you know standing of

the machine or B bottom line so what what would you prefer and also you can impose all regulations but the world is not run by you know by one world government and if you know you have regulations here here in America or in Europe China doesn't care Putin doesn't care so that's again so that's why again we we should recognize that there are limitations of our ability to to uh control the progress we can monitor it but the the idea that we can we can put it under control bureaucratic control so this is it could be only

defensive it could you should stop here no it doesn't so this is It's since you know it's one individual can actually make history so I think we should you know it's instead of trying to to stay on on the way of this of this flood we should I think open all floodgates I I'm I'm extremist okay so so so Gary opening the flood floodgates and if this is our our future and if it's kind of Unstoppable you know maybe there is the the the glass half full View and and we should be optimistic about this but it it also means that many listeners

including maybe uh you know podcast interviewers like David and myself and crypto investors like David and myself we might be out of a job soon or we might have to find a different line of work because chat gbt might be able to do it better than us and so as as someone who's been in that position before where you know suddenly a machine can uh play chess better than all of the human beings was chess any different for you after deep blue uh or like yeah give us some guidance because I feel like you've been playing you know 20 years ahead of the rest of the

society again let us examine human history so let's look at the last couple of hundred years so where we had machines intervening in in in in in all walks of life so the Society of the 18th century was agricultural so the 19th century we saw the replacement of of of uh human labor but machines getting in so by the end of the 19th century beginning of 20th century the big the develop countries they had a very different balance proportion of of urban population versus

Countryside so today how many people doing agriculture America couple of percent and so so then we had this is the the manufacturing europea so we had you industrial Europe so uh uh what's happened with these blue color jobs it again it says oh the problem is that now machines are spreading white color jobs and the difference is that unlike uh uh uh Countryside Fox uh of the uh 18th century or 19 9th Century Fox you know

from Big factories I mean white color jobs you know are just typically taken by people who have their Twitter accounts and who have access to mass media so social media so it's and that's why we are so concerned it's a natural process so I'm not I don't want to sound callous but yes it's just you know if if this job you know just uh is is no longer you know um offers you a chance to compete with a machine so move on so now as for chess

this is slightly different because chess is a game it's a sport and uh we're still watching track and field but you know say Bal or just you know the best you know athletes they cannot compete with with with you know need Ferrari with any car so uh so the same is here so it's yes we know that chess engine now will beat any grandmas it's on chess engine on on on on on this on this device is stronger than the blue so

again it's a little bit unpleasant so actually you know I I to be honest you know I have to admit I'm not very happy about it but look again just you know change the angle of observation when I played carpo 30 35 years ago or so everything we did on age it was like you know the the the It's Magic something you know that happened in the temple so even if we made mistakes Grand Masters who follow the game and just made commentaries they

were they were scared you know they were shy to to to to criticize because they two high priests you know just you know the uh uh in in in the temple of of K of the goddess of Chess and you can't you know uh you may said maybe it's inaccuracy but you can't go after you know after their ability to to to provide his miracles today every amateur you know having access to computer screen can I say ah Magnus Carlson made a blunder and and one million people are laughing so again as a as a former W

chess champion I don't feel very comfortable about it but imagine how many more people now watching chess now we have a chess uh um popularity that beat all the records why one of the reasons because people actually can learn they just you know they they feel that they they understand what's happening they following the game they don't need you know Gary gpar or yasa seran or any commentator to tell them what's happening they just look at the screen ah machine knows everything so it's it there's always a balance

there's always a balance and uh and as long as the balance is positive and in my view just again popularity of Chess is more important than hurt feelings of some top players so we are on the right track are you satisfied or just I'm not sure or you are even more now more more concerned about I am I am for myself I am satisfied I I mean to the point of like this being uh like the Industrial Revolution there's no chance Gary I would change what I do now with the life of kind of a you know a farmer I would not be very good at that skill set you